quote:

Originally posted by Clovis So you're saying deranged individuals aren't a problem?

i think too many people are too quick to label people as "deranged" when they do things like this. plus, preventing so-called deranged people from obtaining weapons is next to impossible in a society where the market is flooded with firearms.

simple fact is you dont see "deranged" crazies murdering 30+ people with a knife or sword.

___________________

Although you do see them releasing toxic gas on subways, making fertilizer bombs, and flying planes into buildings, resulting in far more deaths than school shootings have caused.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think too many people are too quick to label people as "deranged" when they do things like this. plus, preventing so-called deranged people from obtaining weapons is next to impossible in a society where the market is flooded with firearms. simple fact is you dont see "deranged" crazies murdering 30+ people with a knife or sword.

By deranged I mean mentally ill, suicidal, psychotic, generally needing help.

And I can't think of them off the top of my head, but there have been incidents all around the world of people killing people with swords, knives. Especially in Japan.

I'm just trying to get the point accross, those people need help, and they are the problem. Just because they havnt killed/will kill, doesnt mean they aren't a problem that needs to be addressed.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis And I can't think of them off the top of my head, but there have been incidents all around the world of people killing people with swords, knives. Especially in Japan.

true. but we're obviously not going to argue about which form of violence is more successful in killing lots of people are we?

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis I'm just trying to get the point accross, those people need help, and they are the problem. Just because they havnt killed/will kill, doesnt mean they aren't a problem that needs to be addressed.

but what about all the other statistics that arent lumped into your category of "deranged"? just the general day-to-day violence where everyone has access to the most successful weapon we have devised? i think any attempt to help the firearm homicide in the states would get little benefit from some kind of medical initiative to recognise problem cases. shit man, you've got 300 million people. how on earth are you going to prevent otherwise normally-behaving individuals from going bonkers? especially when so many of these individuals are "quiet, well mannered, normal" ??

___________________

quote:

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed 5,285 [children] in the United States.

what the fuck? in 2005 there were 3,400 people aged 17-24 killed by firearms in the US (source)

There were 90 deaths of children 0-12 from firearms. In comparison, there were 278 (~3 times more) children murders using "hands, feet, etc". Also, 185 (~2 times more) were drowned.

There were additional 361 for teenagers 13-16, and firearms do become #1 weapon for these murders.

the statistics that you mention are just blown out of proportions

13-24 is not "children". as the national data shows: (source)

the actual age of the murderers is:
467 murderers aged 13-16
4817 aged 17-24

___________________
writing lyrics aint what it used to be

Last edited by Jocker on Apr-18-2007 at 05:49

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN wrong. if gun control were not the issue, you would find similar gun-related statistics across other advanced democracies. and the figures just arent there. this is primarily a question of access to firearms.

I think his main point is that gun control WON'T completely fix the problem. That simply making guns illegal and doing nothing to address the inherent violence in American society these days, as well as the plethora of mental problems that youth in this country experience, there will still be outbursts of violence, depression will still be rampant, and tragedies will still occur (albeit on a smaller scale).

___________________

To echo what others have said...

The problem is not gun control. It's not democracy. It's not "Freedom". It's not even Christianity this time. The problem lies in this fucked up nutopia of disappointing allure. This modern world of fear and violence and complete lack of control over the very machines we contribute to. Humanity is in pretty sad shape if you ask me - sure, people have been fucked by the establishment for as long as the establishment has been around, but never on this scale, and never with such enthusiastic embrace for ones own demise. This world is fucking sick, and for once it's not an issue of individuality - it's not a problem with 'some people' anymore, it's an issue with a system that is larger than human beings.

Maybe the problem is too much insulation - maybe it's not enough - maybe it's both, but there is definitely a knowledge deficit that keeps people unequal and it's not just a matter of 'what you know' so much as it is a matter of 'how much you are aware of'. Perhaps this has everything to do with the stupid fucking idiot bastard redneck population of any western society, perhaps it has more to do with the cowardly enlightened, the people too afraid to do anything about 'the situation' - but where does the blame lie? Media? Government? The President? Deluded people who have to go on murderous rampages in schools just to be fucking heard? What, exactly, is the problem?

It seems to me that there is a growing division between individual accountability and the influence of a society which has people spellbound and tranquilized by glittering visions of prosperous aspirations for dominance over oneself. How can people feasibly be held accountable for their actions in a world that does not want them to be individuals? It would seem as though, in America, ignorance and submission are the new competence. Those who try to exert control in any extreme are vilified and outcast; labeled as deranged, treated with caution rather than understanding, and so the cycle continues until their only release is...well, I'm sure you know by now.

This is not justification for mass homicide. But some people seem to have the notion that changing policies and laws and legislating MORE control over people will somehow lead to a happier, more safe world, when, in my opinion, that's simply not the case.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

how about we all settle on more gun control along with increased mental health help.


eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 how about we all settle on more gun control along with increased mental health help. eh.

Because you cannot help people that do not want to be helped.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 how about we all settle on more gun control along with increased mental health help. eh.

I wish people would take both those, and all the other factors that lead to an event like this, into consideration. But usually they pick one, the one they know, and stick to it.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomer187 how about we all settle on more gun control along with increased mental health help. eh.

I think we have to same extent think that people will be shot in the face. And if we ever finish correcting that, I'm sure some other lame atrocity will arise in its place, as phenomenal and sensation as the previous.

As much as we hate to admit it, the world is not going to be perfect.

___________________
Alcoholic Alliance
The Ecstasy (MDMA) Bible Thread 2.0

quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Because you cannot help people that do not want to be helped.

well then, those mental health professionals / parents have their work cut out for them.