I'm sorry but do you not see that the area covered in "blue" in the chart? This means that IT IS THE FEDERAL RESERVE. Otherwise they would have made another color for the separate entities. Thank you.

The FED's hold 50% of the NATIONAL DEBT = 5 TRILLION DOLLARS

5 Trillion dollars multiplied by 10 times equals 50 Trillion dollars, and yes they can do this because they use their share of the national debt as collateral to get credit or air money.

They then charge interest on this credit through their member banks to the sum of 2 Trillion dollars a year.

So I have to ask....

Where is the money for the last time?

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Originally posted by culorut Where is the money for the last time?

Still just in your imagination.

Look, I don't know how much clearer we can be. Jerz outlined pretty well how much federal debt the Federal Reserve owns. I gave a report that indicated how much of that collateral has been monetized (not the full 10x as you assumed, but roughly 8.5x). This is relatively easy math, but it shows that there was (assuming your 5% interest rate is accurate, which you even admit is a total assumption), about $415 billion in interest.

So if the Federal Reserve gave back $500 billion, but they only received $415 in profit off of interest, wouldn't it be fair to say that the evil Federal Reserve just gave a donation of $85 billion to the American treasury?

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I feel what you are clearly underestimating is that there is still 50 Trillion dollars of money or debt (what ever you want to call it) and this money is held by the financial sector as a whole which actually is the FED.

This equals 2 Trillion earned in interest a year, where it came from should not matter because it is real.

Where it ended up is the question I am asking because as per the US Treasury balance sheet only 500 Billion was returned.

quote:

Look, I don't know how much clearer we can be. Jerz outlined pretty well how much federal debt the Federal Reserve owns.

And he was correct, they hold a percentage of intragovernmental debt, you forgot they own almost all of the other half.

This equals roughly 5 Trillion dollars of the total national debt, it is not just 1.2 Trillion which the report you guys are linking to states.

Do the math if you want but I already stated the results.

On top of it all the chart shows exactly what I am saying. It's pretty clear otherwise why would it show almost 5 Trillion dollars as of 2008?

quote:

Originally posted by culorut I feel what you are clearly underestimating is that there is still 50 Trillion dollars of money or debt (what ever you want to call it) and this money is held by the financial sector as a whole which actually is the FED. This equals 2 Trillion earned in interest a year, where it came from should not matter because it is real. Where it ended up is the question I am asking because as per the US Treasury balance sheet only 500 Billion was returned.

where does he get this stuff?

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Only an idiot would disregard up to date, official data, just because it doesn't fit some warped ideological world view. The stupidity of extremist libertarians is astounding.

cretinrot isn't a libertarian. libertarians have cogent principles, ideas and theories. cretin is just an anti-government conspiracy theorist, and he's never met a conspiracy he didn't like.

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quote:

Originally posted by culorut On top of it all the chart shows exactly what I am saying. It's pretty clear otherwise why would it show almost 5 Trillion dollars as of 2008?

Pssssttt!!!!

For the last time, the chart shows that government agencies, including the SSA, HUD, FEMA, and other agencies own 5 trillion in treasury debt. The federal reserve banks own only 1.1 trillion. You simply don't know how to read the chart, and you consistently disregard the labelling because it doesn't say what you want it to say. Furthermore, didn't you initially say that the fed owned about 50% of 50 something trillion in treasury debt? What happened to that claim (on my BB, so it isn't easy to scroll back)?

Why don't you try to directly refute those claims, namely that the 5 trillion is held by various government agencies and not solely by the federal reserve banks? Your cute charts simply lump the fed banks with other agencies, so the charts don't prove your point. Instead of reposting charts that I agree are accurate, try to respond directly to the treasury report and my post.

I'm certainly open to being persuaded by relevant and accurate information.

Libertarianism advocates individual freedom. The extreme being an almost anarchical hatred of anything having to do with government.

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Originally posted by Krypton Libertarianism advocates individual freedom. The extreme being an almost anarchical distrust of anything having to do with government.

fixed

Libertarians don't hate government...They support the essential functions that maintain order and defend the people from violence. They just hate when the government engages in violence/coercion itself..and it can only do this when it gets too BIG. They (we) hate big and oppressive government..not the idea of government itself.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt fixed Libertarians don't hate government...

some of them do. some of them hate it so much they want to dismantle central banks even though they dont know what central banks do.

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