quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, then what about people who have been only told about Jesus, but never really introduced into his teachings? Where do you draw the line. If someone just said there's a fellow named Jesus that lived once, but can't really say more than that, is the person who heard that supposed to believe it?

Well,it's the same thing then. They still haven't been told about God's love,and about His saving grace.

quote:

And you haven't answered what happens to crazy psychos who go out killing people because they truly believe that god told them to do so. Some of them are even hearing voices in their heads. What happens to them? If they thought god was telling them something else, they wouldn't do what they are doing. So in a way it isn't their fault. They are trying to be good.

I didn't see that one. :/

Anyway, we all know what God says about murdering. God doesn't tell people to go out and just start killing people.
It isn't God's fault.

quote:

What about people who keep doing bad things and genuinely feel sorry about it but can't stop? Take this hypothetical example: a guy robs a bank. Then he really feels sorry for it, and prays to god. Then he changes his mind and does the same thing all over again. So, he does that kind of stuff a few times, and a policeman finally shots him during time when he was feeling sorry and was thinking about giving the money back. At the moment of death, that person was feeling sorry and was in accordance with god, yet if he was to live a few more days, he would have forgot about it. So, does he go to heaven?

"Through Christ we can do all things"
We can over come anything,with the strength of God.
You'd be suprised what happens to people right as they are passing on. Only God knows that persons heart,and what they are thinking or saying.

___________________
~Nessa

All you atheists/secularists/etc in this thread are going about the debate all wrong, you realize. I mean, occrider and MisterOpus sort of have the right idea with these conflicting bible quotes, but the logic is simple here...

You let the argument progress too far by posing questions to her about religion, who goes to heaven and hell, etc. Even if you can expose contradictions, which she'll never accept, you're still missing the point, which is that by arguing with her "later" terms, you are accepting her initial terms!

It follows something like this:
Atheist: "How do you know God exists?"
Theist: "He just does, I know it."
Atheist: "Prove it."
Theist: "Well, you accept that God is all-powerful"
Atheist: "No..."
Theist: "And you accept that he is all-knowing"
Atheist: "...no?"
Theist: "And the Bible is God's word. And if you interpret the Bible in such and such a way it seems to have predicted some event that happened in ."
Atheist: "Now wait a minute, that's just one interpretation and there's no evidence to support that it's actually related to this event..."

Or something like that. But the problem is, as soon as you argue about the interpretation of the bible, you've essentially accepted the Theist's initial terms for the debate: that there is a God, he is all-powerful, all-knowing, the Bible is God's word, etc. Even if you don't believe this, you have let the issue slide in the debate and you are now stuck arguing on their terms.

It really should go more like:
Atheist: "Prove that there is a God."
Theist: "Well, you accept that God is all-powerful"
Atheist: "No, if there is no God at all, there cannot be an all-powerful God."
Theist: "And you accept that he is all-knowing"
Atheist: "No, I don't accept that he exists at all."
Theist: "And the Bible is God's word. And if you interpret the Bible in such and such a way it seems to have predicted some event that happened in ."
Atheist: "The Bible cannot be God's word if there is no God, it does not matter how you interpret it."

Are we seeing the difference here? You are all letting the theistic arguments get out of hand because you allow them to build up. But if the argument progresses like version (2), then the Atheist can be just as stubborn as the Theist without looking stupid and without having to gather more proof: "No, I do not accept this argument, because the validity of this argument depends on you proving your hypothesis that there is a God, which you haven't done. Go back to the beginning and prove it." That's it, that's all there is to it - they can ramble on and on all they want and to each successive post you need only say, "This is wrong because there is no God. Prove that there is a God and we'll take it from there."

I don't know why you try so hard to refute Theistic points that are based on unacceptable initial conditions to begin with. If you just deny the initial conditions, there is no need to try so hard to form a cogent logical attack against their obviously illogical points. Instead you provoke Nellie and let her fly off the handle with her ridiculous posts - just don't give her fodder in the first place.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You're a 17 year old from Australia. S's post only applies to people from North America. Don't count on Nelly reading that link you sent. And if she does, she'll probably tell you that God does not consider those to be fallacies... No, the reason for it is that you're a hardcore Christian, a member of a religion which indulges in fear and insecurity. I've never met any true Christian who had much self-esteem (not talking about secular "don't really give a damn/just be a good person" Christians here).

Damn. So if I move to North America, or apply to study in the US or Canada, I'll become a born again Christian who enjoys sprouting fallacious arguments to the pagans and the infidels? Sounds good to me!

As for the second point, that actually got me thinking about something. You know the old 'What's stopping an atheist from killing someone, apart from the police? Without god, everything is permitted. Go on, have sex with some animals!" argument?

Has it ever occurred to you what it would be like if they ever de-converted? Since the LORD is the only thing stopping from them indulging in rampages of killing, rape, bestiality and so on, imagine how they would behave if they ever became agnostic's or atheists. To me that does go a good way towards proving the 'fear and insecurity' point when it comes to Xians.

"God, please save me from your (ex?) followers."

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quote:

Originally posted by arctic Damn. So if I move to North America, or apply to study in the US or Canada, I'll become a born again Christian who enjoys sprouting fallacious arguments to the pagans and the infidels? Sounds good to me! As for the second point, that actually got me thinking about something. You know the old 'What's stopping an atheist from killing someone, apart from the police? Without god, everything is permitted. Go on, have sex with some animals!" argument? Has it ever occurred to you what it would be like if they ever de-converted? Since the LORD is the only thing stopping from them indulging in rampages of killing, rape, bestiality and so on, imagine how they would behave if they ever became agnostic's or atheists. To me that does go a good way towards proving the 'fear and insecurity' point when it comes to Xians. "God, please save me from your (ex?) followers."

No....you will are just as likely to become a born again bible thumper down in oz as you are up here......the only difference is you have a much more well rounded education at 16-17 in australia than you would in the US. Our education system has turned into a series of training exercises to take standardized tests instead of learning how to think.

But I digress....and I am tired (am typing on my mom's laptop since I drove 3 hours down here after work to pick up some furniture....back to the city tomorrow....)

Ugh....i think it is time to sleep.

Continue being a vehement and obstinate teenager, just in an atheistic nature there arctic lol.

MrS

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quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel No....you will are just as likely to become a born again bible thumper down in oz as you are up here......the only difference is you have a much more well rounded education at 16-17 in australia than you would in the US. Our education system has turned into a series of training exercises to take standardized tests instead of learning how to think. Continue being a vehement and obstinate teenager, just in an atheistic nature there arctic lol. MrS

Now now, your education point doesn't hold, I'm actually going to a Catholic school. Religion is shoved down your throat every day. Flawed arguments for the existence of god are presented in RE every day, and then there's the compulsory masses, prayers before every class and so on. Otherwise, the education I get is top notch, but when it comes to religion & critical thinking, common sense flies out the window. I have mentioned my atheism to some of the priests who levitate around the place, and apparently I'm just 'going through a rough patch, denying the LORD'.

If I'd listened to what I as spoon fed there, I'd probably be getting ready for an early night right now, as the holy Sabbath is coming up tomorrow. As we all know, one has to be on their best behaviour in the presence of the LORD.

Come to think of it, I like being stubborn, vehement and abusive. Is there a religion that rewards me for behaving like that?

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quote:

Originally posted by arctic Come to think of it, I like being stubborn, vehement and abusive. Is there a religion that rewards me for behaving like that?

Yes, there is - Christianity.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Yes, there is - Christianity.

You will regret your ways on judgement day, heathen.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Well,it's the same thing then. They still haven't been told about God's love,and about His saving grace.

How much bible knowledge then does it take for a person to be considered knowledgable enough about the word of god that there's no more excuse for that person's infidelity?

quote:

I didn't see that one. :/ Anyway, we all know what God says about murdering. God doesn't tell people to go out and just start killing people. It isn't God's fault.

Well, there are plenty of occasions, especially in the old testament, where god ordered murdering people, or has even done so himself. Take Onan, for example. God killed him exclusively because he was jerking off. So, if a mad psycho goes on a rampage and starts killing people for whom he knows are jacking off, he is executing the word of god. It does say in the bible "thou shall not kill", but that is generally referring to innocent people, as people who have commited crimes against god (like working on sunday, for example) are required to be put to death.

But that's infact a different point. There are people who think they are fulfilling the word of god, and are infact pursuing their ideas regardless of severe punishments such a behaviour invokes. It is easy to draw wrong conclusions from the bible, but you can't deny that those people have wholeheartedly devoted themselves to making world a better place. So what happens to those people who believe they are doing good, who believe in Jesus, yet they are doing terrible thins?

quote:

"Through Christ we can do all things" We can over come anything,with the strength of God. You'd be suprised what happens to people right as they are passing on.

People who are dying are afraid and insecure. Many of them are old and senile. In such a state of mind they are more likely to accept nonsensical arguments and ideas, because they're catching on straws.

quote:

Only God knows that persons heart,and what they are thinking or saying.

Yes, but people change. At a given moment, a person can truly feel sorry for their misbehaviours, but a few days later, that same person might change his/her mind and stop feeling remorse.

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Yes, there is - Christianity.

That just doesn't cut it though. Sure, there are the Baptist fundamentalists, Mel Gibson's style ultra-conservative Catholics, Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses. , but then there's all that Jesus stuff. You know, love people and so forth.

I need something really vindictive. Islam won't do, as Allah is meant to be Graceful and forgiving. We can't have that. Satanism is too nice and/or logical, so that wont fly either. Buddhism is way to peaceful, and Vishnu supposedly likes me as well. I mean, come on, why do all the gods fucking love me? Isn't there one who really hates everyone's guts, and enjoys seeing us kill each other? This is really disconcerting.

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quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 As far as I know, Yes. But, Jesus went to the gates of hell and took the keys. So,those people could be free. But,Jesus died on the cross,so now we don't have to. I don't know about you,But, I think that's a pretty darn good gift.

Sorry for taking out a random statement of a couple pages ago for no reason, but i find sad that some people have such a strong conviction in such myths. This one I had never heard of, after 10 years of a catholic education school each saturday. Did you just make it up for all the myths to be a little bit more coherent, heard from some random fundamentalist nut, or is it actually in the holy book that is always right and never ever contradicts itself, the bible?

On an apart note, this debate is pointless, endless and going nowhere, but somehow it is damn fun.

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quote:

Originally posted by arctic That just doesn't cut it though. Sure, there are the Baptist fundamentalists, Mel Gibson's style ultra-conservative Catholics, Mormons & Jehovah's witnesses. , but then there's all that Jesus stuff. You know, love people and so forth. I need something really vindictive. Islam won't do, as Allah is meant to be Graceful and forgiving. We can't have that. Satanism is too nice and/or logical, so that wont fly either. Buddhism is way to peaceful, and Vishnu supposedly likes me as well. I mean, come on, why do all the gods fucking love me? Isn't there one who really hates everyone's guts, and enjoys seeing us kill each other? This is really disconcerting.

I don't think there are any. Let's start one - here are the new 10 commandments:

1. I am the LORD Thy God. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, with the following exceptions: Paul Bernardo, Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, and Ted Kaczynski.

2. All who oppose the word of God, Bernardo, Dahmer, Berkowitz and Kaczynski shall be imprisoned and taunted for 12 years, then put to death by live embalming.

3. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, suchwith by making at least Three Human offerings to the LORD.

4. Thou shalt not kill, except in instances of (2) and (3); or whenst someone givest not thou their money; or whenst they refuseth to lie with thee; or whenst they looketh the wrong way at thee.

5. Thou shalt not steal without first checking to see that the Coast is Clear, or being suitably equipped with a weapon to Silence thy Witnesses.

6. Honor thy father and mother by fathering a child with thy mother and sending thy father into the Next Life.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery without the due infliction of severe pain or death upon Thy partner.

8. Thou shalt not covet Thy neighbour's wife unless thou art prepared to take her by force; or by sword; or by Arson. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's Other Property without being prepared to Take or Destroy it.

9. Thou must eateth only the meat of thy fellow man; all who eat food from the Earth, or the Trees, or the Small Creatures, shall be put to death by catapult.

10. This is the word of the LORD; there can be no contradictions nor errors.

Now... who wants to think of a name?

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quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 Sorry for taking out a random statement of a couple pages ago for no reason, but i find sad that some people have such a strong conviction in such myths. This one I had never heard of, after 10 years of a catholic education school each saturday. Did you just make it up for all the myths to be a little bit more coherent, heard from some random fundamentalist nut, or is it actually in the holy book that is always right and never ever contradicts itself, the bible? On an apart note, this debate is pointless, endless and going nowhere, but somehow it is damn fun.

Nope,it's in the Bible.

___________________
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