quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 Oh yes....and what about the thousands of Canadians that died trying to save Hong Kong? Or the few thousand that died in the Atlantic from 39-41 that were transporting arms and food to Britain? US ships were not attacked during this time so don't start that. Actually, if you REALLY want to get into the grit and dirt....are any Americans aware that General Motors actually tried to negotiate with Hitler about selling him tanks/planes/ammunition to fight Russia with once britain "had been conquered." It's a bloody good thing Britain managed to hold its own and defeat the Luftwaffe in 1940.

US ships WERE attacked, because the Germans practiced unrestricted submarine warfare. Not to mention the US attacked German submarines threatening allied shipping that crossed the neutrality zone established by the US to aid the lend-lease program.

Your attempts to diminish the US's role and intentions in WW2 are really rather pathetic. I would suggest you stop now.

___________________
Retro ...

Funny how most Americans can laugh at Bush's speech problems, but when it's the Canadian PM.....

BTW trinity New Orleans rox!!!!! WOOOOO!

___________________
http://www.discoboomer.com/forums/

quote:

Originally posted by occrider US ships WERE attacked, because the Germans practiced unrestricted submarine warfare. Not to mention the US attacked German submarines threatening allied shipping that crossed the neutrality zone established by the US to aid the lend-lease program. Your attempts to diminish the US's role and intentions in WW2 are really rather pathetic. I would suggest you stop now.

Would you prefer we go back to WWI?

How long did that last? Was it 1914-1918 or 1917-1918?
I know, limited Canadian sovereignty blah blah blah...

___________________
This is what you came for.

Canadian death toll from WWII - 42,000
US death toll from WWII - 295,000
Figures are rounded to nearest 1000

Canadian involvement in WWII:
In December 1939 the Ist Canadian Division left for Britain. They were followed later by two other infantry divisions, two armoured divisions and two armoured brigades.

In 1941 two Canadian battalions were sent to the defence of Hong Kong but they were captured by the invading Japanese Army in December 1941. Of these, 246 died as a result of harsh treatment while prisoners of war.

The Royal Canadian Air Force contributed a squadron during the Battle of Britain and 48 other Canadian squadrons fought during the war. Canada also provided facilities and personnel for the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan which produced 131,553 airmen for Commonwealth countries.

Canadian soldiers were used on the raid on Dieppe in France in August 1942. The attempt to take and hold the port was a disaster and 3,367 out of the 4,963 Canadians who took part were killed, wounded or captured.

The 3rd Canadian Division and second armoured brigade took part in the invasion of Normandy in June 1944. The Canadians suffered heavily casualties during the fighting at Pas de Calais, Caen and Falaise. They fought throughout the Netherlands and participated in the recapture of Antwerp.

After the surrender of Germany in April 1945, a Canadian occupation force remained in the country until 1946.


US involvement:
If you would like to see the US involvement in WWII follow the links, the data was to great to post in this thread!

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWarmedforces.htm

http://www.donet.com/%7Emconrad/links.htm

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/

So as one of you so eloquently put it Fuck right off!

BTW First WW June 28, 1914- June 28 1919
Almost 600,000 Canadians joined the army during the First World War. Of these, 418,000 served overseas with the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) and sixty-three of these won the Victoria Cross, including William Bishop and John MacGregor. The CEF had 210,000 casualties, of whom, 56,500 were killed.

By July 1918 there were over a million US soldiers in France. General John Pershing deployed US troops to help the French defend the Western Front during the 3rd Battle of the Aisne in May and at the Marne in June. US troops also took part in the Allied attacks at Le Hamel and Canal du Nord before Pershing launched his own offensive at St Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne.

More than 2 million troops eventually reached Europe but a large number arrived too late to see any action. The American Expeditionary Force suffered 264,000 casualties during the war. It has been calculated that 112,432 Americans died. Of these, around 50 per cent died from disease (mainly influenza).

___________________
"If we are to achieve greatness in life, we must live as though we were never going to die" - ?

Last edited by trintiy on Jun-06-2003 at 16:37

quote:

Originally posted by Wurm Would you prefer we go back to WWI? How long did that last? Was it 1914-1918 or 1917-1918? I know, limited Canadian sovereignty blah blah blah...

US Casualties in WW1: 118,000
Canadian Casualties in WW1: 60,000

Look asshole. Your argument is akin to something like ... well Russia was an ally of Germany and didn't enter the war until 1941 so their 20 MILLION plus casualties and contribution to the war effort is in some way not as noble as saintly Canada's . This didn't start off with anybody from the US critisizing Canada's role in WW1 and WW2. Actual CRITICISM with regards to this topic of WW1 and WW2 has been flowing one way. I'm not going to stoop to the level of demeaning your country's contributions and sacrifices in either war so you can go to hell.

Edit: looks like trinity beat me to the punch. Normally I can keep my cool but this argument has gotten pathetically lame.

___________________
Retro ...

^^^^^ Agreed, I can't believe that something that started out as a bit of humor, has turned into this!!!!!!

___________________
"If we are to achieve greatness in life, we must live as though we were never going to die" - ?

Canada contributed as much as it could. Almost 900,000 Canadians were involved in WW1....at the time, our total population in 1918 was LESS than 10,000,000. After the success at Vimy Ridge, Canadians were the most feared troops on the western front. A small, but effective army, as in WW2. On D Day 1944, (59 years ago today), Canadians pushed further at Juno Beach than the Brits did at Sword and Gold or the Yanks at Omaha and Utah but faced similar opposition.

And US ships were not attacked from 1939-41....or else FDR would have gone to war immediately against Germany. He could only get the full support of his people when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.(which higher ups knew about by the way, but let it happen)

But whatever...we all did our part. But I'm really sick of seeing Americans and their movies attempt to portray that it was only Americans that won both wars. The three tide turning battles in WW2 were fought before American forces even engaged the Germans. They are the Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and El Alamein (the last one stopped Rommel from acquiring oil in Egypt).

What the Americans DID do was help out Britain and Russia with supplies and made the war in Europe end faster than it would have without them. And they made a huge contribution in fighting the Japs.

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"

What happened in these wars were decisions made by a few people over half a century ago. We can't say shit now, because we were not the ones sent to fight in these wars. Its silly to undermine the efforts of the Americans during these times, and its also silly to to think that Americans "bailed out the europeans" in the world wars.

It's easy to criticize or take credit now, but we'll never know what really went on in the minds of the people involved.

With that said, I'm happy to live in Canada, and I'm happy with our current PM, and I can laugh along with jokes aimed at him. This country gives me $8000 every year so I can go to school, half of it I don't need to pay back, (mind u school is ALOT cheaper here than the US), and I don't pay a cent when I go see my family doctor. And there is no waiting lines to do that.

I've been to big US cities, like New York, and Miami. I lived with my uncle in the Bronx for two weeks. Let's just say that you can't really compare standard of living for an immigrant in the middle of New York with the standard of living for an immigrant in Toronto or Vancouver.

US citizens can keep chanting "U.S.A" and "we're number 1," bragging about their economic powerhouse and how rich they are, but as a poor-ass student living in the middle of a metropolis, I definately know where I'd rather be.

___________________
jimtran.net

I think it's safe to say that the Russians had the most casualities in WWI and WWII combined.
PLease don't hurt me if i'm wrong...

___________________

It has to start somewhere,
It has to start sometime,
What better place then here?
What better time than now?
--Rage Against the Machine

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 And US ships were not attacked from 1939-41....or else FDR would have gone to war immediately against Germany. He could only get the full support of his people when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.(which higher ups knew about by the way, but let it happen)

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/macnair/mcnair33/m33c4con.html

Oh and the higher ups likely did not know of the attack at pearl harbor. They had reason to suspect that Japanese attack was going to occur SOMEWHERE in the pacific but they didn't have direct data indicating the Japanese fleet was storming towards Pearl Harbor. All those coded intercepts that people like to use as evidence of FDR's duplicity and knowledge of the attacks weren't even decoded until after the attack.

quote:

The three tide turning battles in WW2 were fought before American forces even engaged the Germans. They are the Battle of Britain, Stalingrad and El Alamein (the last one stopped Rommel from acquiring oil in Egypt).

You might want to add the battle of the atlantic to that list. Although technically the battle of Britain and the battle of the atlantic are not really tide turners since they were defensive actions that did not really cripple the German war machine. The Bulge could be considered decisive since it was the last German counterattack that had any chance at success.

quote:

I think it's safe to say that the Russians had the most casualities in WWI and WWII combined. PLease don't hurt me if i'm wrong...

I'm a huge fan of 20th centure European history. I think that it can be easily said that the Russians made the greatest sacrifice of the 20th century anywhere. Historians cannot accurately pinpoint the total number of Russian dead in WW2, but the low end estimates say somewhere along the lines of 20 million dead with the high estimates somewhere along the lines of 40 or 50 million. Compare this with 300,000 Americans and 3.5-4.5 million Germans. Also what a lot of people forget is that something like 5-15 million Chinese died as well. Just goes to show what countries can accomplish when they engage in total war.

___________________
Retro ...

The Battle of Britain was a HUGE tide turning battle! Come on man....wake up!! England was on its own with its back up against the wall....France (with a bigger army than both England AND Germany...fucking French. ) had already fallen. The combination of the superiority of British (and commonwealth, Check, free french, polish, a few yanks, etc) pilots and British aircraft at odds of over 4-1 AND after Hitler's stupid decision to attack the cities rather than airfields granted the Allies the first major victory of the war. If England had not defeated the Luftwaffe, there would have been no war for the Americans to join. British support, and later American, would never have reached Russia. Germany would have been able to defeat Russia in 1941-42 had she not been tied up in Africa and in the Atlantic combatting British and Commonwealth trooops. Plus, the Battle of Britain was a massive victory for morale. It showed the British still had a fight in them to give.....no wonder Hitler abandoned Operation Sea Lion, because he knew without control of the air, he could not face the Royal Navy (still the largest and most powerful in the world at the time). Also....over 2000 German aircraft were shot down in the BoB. compared to about 900 British aircraft. The Germans also lost over 3,000 experienced air crewman. Had those numbers not been lost, the Germans would have had clear air superiority over Russia and in Western Europe during the D-Day invasion.

I think you fail to see the effects of Britain defeating Germany in the air in 1940. Without that victory, WW2 would have been over by 1942 at the latest.

OH, and quddha....you're my new hero.

___________________
"No offense, but you're stupid"