quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Hey Montie, I agree, once people become good at it they should not need to go to websites to get this info. And yes there is definately an art to knowing which tune will go where. But people have to start somewhere. Once they get used to hearing what an in key mix sounds like they will eventually not need to refer to a website. But if they did, and they were a better DJ than you or I as a result of doing so, who would we be to argue? I play guitar and piano and produce my own trance so have a keen musical interest, but after 16 years of DJing I still key my records as it does help. And I know some of the big name DJs do too. By the way you are so right, Sasha is an excellent example of harmonic mixing as he always does it. Paul van Dyk, Tiesto, Oakenfold and M.I.K.E. also do it. I checked out your mix. Did you know that the keys you use are: Em, Em, Cm, F#m, D#m, Dm, Dm, or 9a, 9a, 5a, 11a, 2a, 7a, 7a with the Camelot method. (Keeping in mind that this may not be the true key that the record would go in at +-0 due to pitch. Guitar was also a little out of tune ). Keeping in mind that you are learning the piano I think that you will in time look at this mix and think that you may have liked to have done this a bit differently. Some of the keys clash but you get away with it as you mixed beat and bass into just beat etc. Your mix is well thought out, you can see that there is a thread in there and you build which is good. You start well and finish strong. It's the middle section that might let you down. If I was a night club promoter based on that performance I would hire you. But if I had a DJ that did the harmonics better you would get an earlier slot. Progressive is not my thing but I did like that last track you played, awesome bassline. The transition between the last two tracks is also good harmonically speaking. It just sneaks up on you but when the bass kicks in it uplifts but still feels as if it's meant to be there. The Key of a record is the very reason why it feels right or wrong. If you know how to work the key changes you could in theory play some fairly mediocre music and still have a good performance, just as you will probably have seen a DJ play all the right tunes but for some reason it just didn't fire you up in the same way that it does when another DJ plays it. Think of it like this. Producers go to a hell of a lot of trouble to work keys and chords to play with your emotions. And we know that songs make us feel good or sad etc. So would it not also make sense that a DJ could take this one step further and and play with peoples emotions on a grand scale using the same principles? I hope you didn't mind me looking at your mix in this way, it is after all just my opinion. You do a lot of the important things right and you value musical knowledge, I think it sounds like you have a good future ahead of you. All the best and keep up the good work. Nem PS Can someone help with my question regarding the setting up of MP3 files?

Hey thanks for the review of my mix. i really appreciate it. i never looked up the keys or anything for those songs. I just played around for a while and found a set that i thought worked well.

and i agree that websites that database all the keys of songs are an invaluable tool especially to newbies (like myself). i should prolly start looking up my records and keying them to start to help develop my skill of being able to know how to mix harmonicaly by ear.

i definatly agree harmonic mixing is an invaluable skill to a DJ. the DJ should be taking charge of everyone's emotions. thats how the DJ sweeps you off your feet so people can say the next day "last night a DJ saved my life." knowing keys is definatly gonna help in doing this.
and this is a skill i need to work on developing alot more.





what question did you have on setting up mp3s?

Keep in my that said keys are useless when the pitch changes enough. You can write down keys all you want, but they're useless if there's any great pitch change. Which, in my opinion, is why it's not all that useful to know them. You're best off just hearing them.

The unfortunate thing about even remembering tracks and thinking about what goes well with what's playing is that the track that's playing may be off key, or that when you play this other track, you'll need to raise/lower pitch to compensate. The best you can do live if be quick with your hands and ears.

Of course, there's always "master tempo" functions, but I've yet to hear one that doesn't flange/skip when you change the tempo (and if you understand how they work, in theory, it's not really possible for them not to).

Also, I tried that mixmeister program out to test the keys. It gets about 80% or so of them right, from what I tried. (though it also gave me them all as minor...?) You can also tell wherever Xavier got those keys from was using mixmeister because I'm pretty sure those ALL aren't minor.

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quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

Last edited by Fast Turtle on Aug-31-2003 at 17:07

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear Keep in my that said keys are useless when the pitch changes enough. You can write down keys all you want, but they're useless if there's any great pitch change. Which, in my opinion, is why it's not all that useful to know them. You're best off just hearing them. The unfortunate thing about even remembering tracks and thinking about what goes well with what's playing is that the track that's playing may be off key, or that when you play this other track, you'll need to raise/lower pitch to compensate. The best you can do live if be quick with your hands and ears. Of course, there's always "master tempo" functions, but I've yet to hear one that doesn't flange/skip when you change the tempo (and if you understand how they work, in theory, it's not really possible for them not to). Also, I tried that mixmeister program out to test the keys. It gets about 80% or so of them right, from what I tried. (though it also gave me them all as minor...?) You can also tell wherever Xavier got those keys from was using mixmeister because I'm pretty sure those ALL aren't minor.

Well actually.. you will find that nearly all dance records go in a minor key. I think I have about two or three that don't. Can't speak for Xavier though as I have not read his post.

With regards to tempo it's quite simple. I usually find that if you pitch up a record more than 3% then you will change key. But if you know your records well (Which all DJs should) you should know which ones are slower and which ones are faster. With this in mind all you have to do is change key accordingly, lets say you have a record at 140 bpm that goes in a C minor. You intend to mix in a record that goes at 135 bpm that is also a C minor. You would have to pitch up the second record so much that you would actually end up with a C# minor (agreed that this might not sound so good if you did a gradual blend). But this is not a bad mix, on the contrary what you would have is one of those powerful key changes that brings in new energy.
With the Camelot method all you have to do is add 7 to the existing number so from a 5A you would have a 12A instead at 140 bpm.
It wouldn't be so hard to make a small note of this either.

You are technically right on some of the points you are making but I think you are wrong to dismiss the use of making notes alltogether. All it takes is a little understanding of the implications of pitch change and good knowledge of your records and it's all becomes clear.

As for hardware that sorts pitch/key out, I agree it's not worth the effort.

Each to their own naturally but I think you might want to look into this again?

All the best in any case

Cheers
Nem

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quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Well actually.. you will find that nearly all dance records go in a minor key. I think I have about two or three that don't. Can't speak for Xavier though as I have not read his post. With regards to tempo it's quite simple. I usually find that if you pitch up a record more than 3% then you will change key. But if you know your records well (Which all DJs should) you should know which ones are slower and which ones are faster. With this in mind all you have to do is change key accordingly, lets say you have a record at 140 bpm that goes in a C minor. You intend to mix in a record that goes at 135 bpm that is also a C minor. You would have to pitch up the second record so much that you would actually end up with a C# minor (agreed that this might not sound so good if you did a gradual blend). But this is not a bad mix, on the contrary what you would have is one of those powerful key changes that brings in new energy. With the Camelot method all you have to do is add 7 to the existing number so from a 5A you would have a 12A instead at 140 bpm. It wouldn't be so hard to make a small note of this either. You are technically right on some of the points you are making but I think you are wrong to dismiss the use of making notes alltogether. All it takes is a little understanding of the implications of pitch change and good knowledge of your records and it's all becomes clear. As for hardware that sorts pitch/key out, I agree it's not worth the effort. Each to their own naturally but I think you might want to look into this again? All the best in any case Cheers Nem

Heh...I'm not sure. I personally don't like doing things by math, so maybe that's why I'm more averse to it, but to each their own.

edit:
On the minor key issue...Even when I put in songs that I know were major (IE, stuff I made in fruity loops, certain dance songs), it would give me minor. Mixmeister only gives songs in minor, in fact. For instance, I made a song in C major, that went CECECECB; all major notes. The key mixmeister gave me was E minor. Though all the notes were technically in eminor, and the song was ambiguous. So, what happens when I give it all C major intervals? It gives me a minor; the conjugate of c major. So mixmeister apparently reads all the different intervals in a track, and then figures out a minor key based on that (if you keep in mind, for every minor key there is an identical major one). My guess is that it works via the bass tones. Interesting. It gave me some way off keys for a couple of tracks though.

A smart thing to memorize though, would be your scales for this as well, for you that don't know them. This way you can know what chords played together will strike the audience as being happy/sad/tense/funky/etc and can basically form them with two tracks (this is probably especially effective for progressive).

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quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

Last edited by Fast Turtle on Sep-01-2003 at 01:34

Agreed, a point well made. The knowledge of scales and even knowing the scales used in the tracks you are listening to would be very useful but as you said it would probably serve itself better in Progressive. There is a little too much going on in trance and some of the clashes could sound horrible (I seem to recal you also mentioning this in an earlier post).

I personally don't use any software of any kind to determine the key of a record and I am truly dubious of any such tool at the best of times. For me to know the key of a record I usually get my keyboard or guitar and play along with it. I like to now a little more about it and how it feels to play it.

But if you have perfect pitch becuase ultimately that's what you must have to get it right without anything else, or you write down the keys of the records in some way.. the end result is the same.
I think the thing that strikes me about a lot of people who are against the latter is that they are assuming that it will become DJing by numbers. I have to agree with that, as there is a risk as people also need to be aware that they still have to consider their choice of track for the moment, and not just choose it becuase it works harmonically with the current track.

It seems some people also confuse this as a substitute or a crash course in crowd manipulation which it is most certainly not. Reading the crowd is something a good DJ will do well. But within that you also have the possibility of messing with their emotions by using harmonic stuff.

Man it's interesting to see how differently people see things.

Stay safe
Nem

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wow, great points

yikes. I started DJing a few months ago, and have progressed really well. My beat-matching is gettign toghter by the day, as are my mixes. is this harmonic mixing something I should even concern myself with at this point, seeing as I have only been doing it a few months?

quote:

Originally posted by zizack yikes. I started DJing a few months ago, and have progressed really well. My beat-matching is gettign toghter by the day, as are my mixes. is this harmonic mixing something I should even concern myself with at this point, seeing as I have only been doing it a few months?

well it something you should always be thinking about, but not something you should focus on now. now you should be focusing on getting beat matching down and channel fading and EQ fading.

as you learn the channel fading and EQ fading you will start to see more how harmonic mixing is important.

Once you are solid on the fundamentals and can mix any song with any other and do as smooth of a transition as the two records allow, then you should worry about getting harmonic mixing down.

*punts thread from bottom of world up into the light*


nem can you email me? [email protected]
have a few questions about key mixing

1) if you have say a tune at 128 8A, and you are mixing a tune which is 133 and 9A, since there is a 5bpm difference, will bringing the speed of the 133 tune down, also bring the 9A down to 8A? im pretty sure this is wrong but wanted to check anyway.

2) when doing an energy shift, eg up 7 or up 14, what is the most effective way to mix. i know you need to make sure no strong melodies are playing, but when playing prog that usually just leaves the bass drums playing, which saps energy anyway. got any tips for doing it better then that?

Interesting questions.

quote:

1) if you have say a tune at 128 8A, and you are mixing a tune which is 133 and 9A, since there is a 5bpm difference, will bringing the speed of the 133 tune down, also bring the 9A down to 8A? im pretty sure this is wrong but wanted to check anyway.

Ok, here is how it works.
Firstly the 8A track is an A minor. The 9A track is an E minor. The difference in BPM means that you would have to adjust one of them so much that you would indeed change the key of the track.
If you were to bring the speed of the 9A down more than 2 to 3% assuming that we are talking on the plus side of 0, you would change it to a D# minor/Eb minor as that is the next note down from the E minor. This would not be compatible with anything in A minor (8A) but would go well with records in 2A (D# minor) for example. One of the skills you need as a harmonic mixer is to understand the siginificance of key change and how it affects your music. If you can work this out on the spot you can get creative. Also working things in with a few clever changes can get you to the track you want, it's just left up to you to figure out the journey.
Let's say you are playing something in C minor (5A), and I want to play a track in B minor (10 A). If I did that mix as stated above it would kill the energy in the mix. But if decided to go the other way, i.e. do a key change from 5A (C minor) to 12 A (C# minor) and then harmonically mix from 12A, 11A to 10A you have down the same thing and blended some tracks nicely. If you do too many key change mixes you can actually bore the audience. It's like doing a set full of peaktime tracks. People would get tired in the end.

quote:

2) when doing an energy shift, eg up 7 or up 14, what is the most effective way to mix. i know you need to make sure no strong melodies are playing, but when playing prog that usually just leaves the bass drums playing, which saps energy anyway. got any tips for doing it better then that?

This question is a little harder to answer in just one way. If you are talking prog in terms of Sasha and the likes you are actually better off going for the full on harmonic stuff. This music wasn't doesn't really lend itself too well to this type of mixing (key change).
One way of getting a similar effect to a key change mix is to go down in the Camelot method. So you would go 9A, 8A to 7A and so on. Both phrase matching and key changes are harder with prog as there are not necessarilly any truly defining parts to the tracks in the places you need them. A prog dance floor is also in a different frame of mind so not sure how key changes would go down. I'm sure it would work but I think you would have to be clever about it. Experiment with tracks such as Sasha's 'Expander'. This track has a nice feel all the way through and builds up to a climax by using a drum roll before it drops down into just the beat after that. If you then had a track that had beats to a certain point and then built up and really broke loose you could time it so that as one stops the other starts. This would be a good way of doing a key change (Probably not the clearest example but hope it helps).
In order to do long mixes just like Sasha you don't need to think key change at all, just harmony.

Hope this helps some. If you need me to clarify anything just give us a shout.

Cheers
Nem

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Thanks, that answers my questions pretty well

You're right it does seem harder to key change effectively in prog. I haven't actually been playing much trance lately but I think I will give it a go, I'm guessing its much more effective.

Mixing in key with prog I've found is great, being able to overlay tunes with long periods of time with no ugly key clashing sounds wicked.

The only other problem I have is that at the moment I almost completely rely on the keys to mix. My friend who has been mixing for about 2 years (1 year longer then me) doesn't key his records, but I don't think I have ever heard him mix out of key. Lucky bugger! He either has perfect pitch or just knows his records really well (which I doubt because he doesn't practice that much anymore). I find having a good musical memory helps, which again I dont have. When I'm looking through my crate for a tune to mix sometimes I can't clearly remmeber how a melody of a tune goes!

quote:

Originally posted by sebjr Thanks, that answers my questions pretty well You're right it does seem harder to key change effectively in prog. I haven't actually been playing much trance lately but I think I will give it a go, I'm guessing its much more effective. Mixing in key with prog I've found is great, being able to overlay tunes with long periods of time with no ugly key clashing sounds wicked. The only other problem I have is that at the moment I almost completely rely on the keys to mix. My friend who has been mixing for about 2 years (1 year longer then me) doesn't key his records, but I don't think I have ever heard him mix out of key. Lucky bugger! He either has perfect pitch or just knows his records really well (which I doubt because he doesn't practice that much anymore). I find having a good musical memory helps, which again I dont have. When I'm looking through my crate for a tune to mix sometimes I can't clearly remmeber how a melody of a tune goes!

Hey Sebjr,

I wouldn't beat yourself up about that too much.
Does your friend ever put a track on the deck and then take it off and replace it with another? If the answer to that is yes then he is basically doing the same thing as you but you have just taken the guess work out of it that's all.
He could also be one of these lucky buggers that has perfect pitch.

It could also be that you probably have heard him mix out of key but you were just not as aware of it as you are now.
You will also surprise yourself one of these days too I think. The reason being is that the more mixes you hear in key the more you train yourself to hear it. So you are also learning a new feel for your records.

Just to let you know, I would not feel to bad about marking your records either. I was lucky enough to close a night at one of the clubs I play at, after quite a big name DJ had been on (I wont tell you who) but he also marked his records and used the camelot method. He played a great set with some great tunes.

It's just a means to an end is how you have to see it. Most people will say they think it's a waste of time because they fear they might not be able to do it. If you keep practicing and you intend to play out you it will pay in the end I promise you. It will be one of those things that will separate you from a lot of DJs and it will make you sound amazing. Naturally there are a few other factors in there but hey... give yourself as many weapons as you can.

Stick with it and Peace
Nem

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