quote:

Originally posted by Orbax to be blunt, you have the theory of evolution I have the theory of God I personally see more correlation in the science around the Bible hehe (sorry guys not gonna draw me in on that statement either, itd be a book).

What if I have both? By your standards, would I be incorrect to separate matters of faith and matters of scientific observation? And I'm sorry, but you just drew yourself into it with that statement. Perhaps you should clarify how science correlates well around the Bible. Please give credible evidence to support your arguments.

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I think its great that scientists are trying to figure out what the hell is going on with our world. But when they start getting into the "why"'s and the "Who"'s they are kinda walking into unknown territory for science.

Straw Man. You are attempting to personify science, more or less, as if it really cares about the "why's" and the "who's". It doesn't. Science is about understanding world and universe on natural terms, nothing else. Anything else implied is what Creationists create and label in order to demonize simplistic observation.

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Why on a grand scheme, not why does a ball fall down kinda thing. The main things I dont like about evolution: It promotes the religion of secularity

I'm sorry, but again, science doesn't give a poop about religion, nor is it looking for the "why's" and "who's" that religion offers. You must separate these ideas. Evolution doesn't care what the Bible/Koran says, and it's certainly not trying to disprove God's existance. It is entirely about understanding naturalistic pathways, nothing more. If it has implications that disagree with the Genesis story or anything else, so be it. But that's not the notion, nor does it have an agenda to do so. It just merely is.

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It is typically used to disprove Religion by people

Yes, atheists do draw upon it often, but just because atheists may believe evolution doesn't equate the opposite. There are many evolutionists who are not atheists. You are conversing with one example of that right now. But as stated, evolution itself is not out to disprove religion. That's up to the people who use it and/or misunderstand it to do so.

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It is taught as a fact that just needs a lil more time to be proven in schools without looking at any other alternative. Whereas "religious" organizations are banned from public schools the stuff like evolution are given as fact (again) and I think that the theory of evolution needs just as much faith as God.

It is taught as a fact because facts support the evidence. Again I ask, do you have POSITIVE, TESTABLE, and FALSIFIABLE to the contrary? You quoted me earlier when I asked these 3 questions, but yet you dodged and did not give me a direct answer. If you cannot show me Godidit by answering these 3 questions, why should I want anything else to be taught in a science class?

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No ones the science behind it, so they sit there and say "well im sure the scientists know what they are doing, and itll be proven one day" sound familiar?

I just realized the underlying problem with your argument - it appears you do not really understand evolution very well. This is unfortunately quite common, especially among very religious individuals. But to answer your question, no that doesn't sound familiar at all. Please explain.

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Im all for people believing something theyve studied. But making a life choice based on a "I read it in a science book" kind of attitude is what pisses me off.

I understand what you are saying, however you must realize those science books are created directly from supported evidence from primary literature research. Questioning parts of what's written is by no means wrong. Quite the opposite. But if you look a little deeper at what you question, you will see the research does, in fact, support what's written in the textbooks.

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I hate ignorance more than evolution by far. Educated life choices...i wont even try to change your mind in that area. but when someone shrugs their shoulders and makes a choice...Grr!

Is that how you perceive me, shrugging my shoulders and making a choice on the matter? I must have been quite absentminded when obtaining my B.S. in Organismal Biology, and even more absent when obtaining my M.S. in Physiology. I hate ignorance as well, but I tend to think the burden of proof lies in Creationists to come up with positive, testable, and falsifiable evidence that runs contrary to the overwhelming evidence shown through evolutionary pathways. I tend to feel Creationists being slightly more ignorant than myself when accepting evidence.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

im glad you spent a lot of time working on that opus, but no, im not going to respond. You claim straw man...cute. Im not debating so go ahead. I was point out reasons why I believe, i wasnt creating a philosophical doctrine for the masses to be enlightened by. Try putting your emotions on the shelf, and look at why im saying stuff.

cheers.

edit* You are a sensitive little dude arent you? I just actually read your post and you think i was talking to you? ehehehe. Youre weird.

quote:

Originally posted by DJScottKeith DigiNut - I dont necessarily disagree with you, but until you have checked out the material yourself, I dont think you can really make a statment on what his views are. MisterOpus1 - I actually found that stuff to be really entertaining =) I'm not saying that Hovind is "IT" or he has all the answers or anything, but I feel he provides some good arguments for creation in a more scientific manner then many other creationists put forth. If you don't believe in God, there is nothing I can do to prove it to you, but sometimes people like to hear 'arguments' or facts for creationism and I think Hovind makes some pretty convincing cases. The college stuff is pretty funny, but I think we honestly all know MANY incredible individuals who never attended any college of any type. I am not defending him particularly, but rather saying that not having a college education from an ivy leage school or any college for that matter doesn't mean you can't be intelligent. Just watch/listen to his material, make the decisions for yourself. I don't agree with many of his points, but it doesn't mean they are not interesting.

Every argument Hovind brings up is a logical fallacy, period. Is it interesting reading? Sure. Are they strong arguments? Nope. Not by any means. As for his credentials, it is a common tool for Creationists to attempt to show they are on the same intellectual playing field as evolutionists. While no doubt there are some Creationists/IDers who are valid scientists who teach and do research at accredited universities, Hovind's background is an absolute joke and is a shining example of a good portion of Creationists who get their degrees at these so called degree mills like "Patriot University". I should note that while those Creationists/IDers who do hold real PhDs have undoubtedly have published research in actual scientific fields of their given specialty, not one has ever published a paper on their Creationism/Intelligent Design Theory in a peer-review journal. Wanna guess why?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax im glad you spent a lot of time working on that opus, but no, im not going to respond. You claim straw man...cute. Im not debating so go ahead. I was point out reasons why I believe, i wasnt creating a philosophical doctrine for the masses to be enlightened by. Try putting your emotions on the shelf, and look at why im saying stuff. cheers.

Now Orbax, I am by no means being emotional. I am passionate about it, no doubt, but I do enjoy a good debate. I'm sorry you choose not to engage. I also mean no disrespect toward you or anyone who's beliefs run counter to my statements. I'm just bored as hell at work, as usual.

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edit* You are a sensitive little dude arent you? I just actually read your post and you think i was talking to you? ehehehe. Youre weird.

Stop it man! I'm not sensitive!!! Leave me alone!!! AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

***runs out of room crying***

Okay (sniff), I'm back. Sorry, you just touched a real sensitive nerve with me. I guess the Mrs. tells me the same thing, and I JUST CAN'T TAKE HEARING IT FROM EVERYBODY ELSE!!!!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*****runs out of room again crying*******

I'm sorry, Orbax, I did think you were referring to me. My mistake. But as I mentioned, I was just entering a debate on different views of things, nothing more. But even if you were talking to me, I'm not getting worked up over this at all, just making points in a conversation, that's all. As I said, I am passionate about the subject, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't carry too much weight in me losing sleep at night.

But hey, it's Friday, I had a long ass week, and I'm ready for a beer. Cheers to you my friend and have a good weekend.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

i was very heavy into religion as a child. However, through maturity and events, i turned on god and eventually wore away to Athieism. However, things turned toward the better, got the help i needed and realized it was better to have god on my side in any circumstance.
Creation or Evolution. tough topic. Spiritually and to the best relations of science, i think god created an animal superior to the other in the fact that it could learn and grow. Monkeys i guess. Then evolution and mutation took over and here we are today, advanced over thousands of years. However, with all gods creations supposedly comes equality, except in the case of humans. The example of Over/Under-population of deer and wolves has a balance in this world. However, humans do not create this kind of balance. Doing the clockwork backwards, were we "created" by the same things that created animals?
overall, god created life, along with intelligence and evolution and here we are today and he's watchin us grow in every way like a gardener to his roses

___________________
Thank You and Goodnight

cheers im passionate too, and was just kind of annoyed by having my common talk reasons for believing stuff analyzed in a philosophical/scientific way. I keep saying im not trying to debate but everyone keeps goin after me lol. Every time i read stuff you guys post my fingers itch, but im like NO, not debating! hehe..

*goes and gets a beer*

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I think its great that scientists are trying to figure out what the hell is going on with our world. But when they start getting into the "why"'s and the "Who"'s they are kinda walking into unknown territory for science.

Creationist really irritate me cause they have an axe to grind against science. Look its nothing personal; religion relies on faith and science is based on logic.

The whole purpose of science is to ask why. You just don’t like the theory of evolution because conflicts with the “facts” laid out in the bible. No one is trying to disprove the existence of god or destroy your faith. If you believe in god, cool, just don’t expect science conform to your beliefs. Unlike religion, science doesn’t have an agenda; it goes wherever the facts lead.

___________________
GIGANTIC CUNT

quote:

Originally posted by djSlain

Just for clarification: Theres kind of a difference between monkeys and apes. Someone can correct me if im wrong, but the ToE is more directing towards the common ancestor being a pre-ape kind of thing.

quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow Unlike religion, science doesn’t have an agenda; it goes wherever the facts lead.

edit* to clarify: thats like saying a hammer doesnt have an agenda. But it will build pretty much anything whoevers holding it wants to.

Religion doesnt technically have an agenda either. Just the people using it.

Scientists arent these perfectly balanced harmonious beings in tune with the earth mother who are merely tapping into knowledge wells and letting the rest of humanity know about it. They are people. They steal, masturbate, and cheat on their girlfriends just like anyone else. And if they want to find a way to make it so girls dont get pregnant thats what they do, it isnt by some fact finding treasure hunt that they figure this stuff out.

Last edited by Orbax on Oct-10-2003 at 21:29

just look under my name, i'm an atheist. i don't believe in a god like other people believe in. religions usually create wars, just look in the past and count how many wars started cuz of religion.
stop devoting your life to someone u never met before, rather devote your life to your family, friends and everyone close.

i think it's such a bullshit, people really sensing someone's around him, and saying it's god to protect him. just look at Discovery, religion is nothing more than a few brainwaves, the need of someone around you

quote:

Originally posted by Switch just look under my name, i'm an atheist. i don't believe in a god like other people believe in. religions usually create wars, just look in the past and count how many wars started cuz of religion. stop devoting your life to someone u never met before, rather devote your life to your family, friends and everyone close. i think it's such a bullshit, people really sensing someone's around him, and saying it's god to protect him. just look at Discovery, religion is nothing more than a few brainwaves, the need of someone around you

Hehehe. thanks for proving my point. Its the people behind things that cause problems, not the things themselves. Let him be a warning to ye alllllll