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Originally posted by Yoepus no but we're Europe, we are so much smarter and wiser then everyone else! We don't let our TV make biased reports and propogate us... we know better... we are informed and have good foreign policy understanding and opinion... sigh When will the Europeans learn they are just like everyone else, they need to get off their moral ladder and see face to face with the rest of the world.

lol, that was probably the funniest statement i have heard in a long while

Who's tv is making biased reports and propagates? I can say to 98% that it is NOT european tv! I can't speak for whole europe but at least in sweden a lot of people have access to cnn and similar US tv stations, we also have our own news networks. Almost all cities in a small country as sweden have at least two newspapers. We have many different tv networks that actually have different views. We also have political parties that have different opinions. We have a debate in a whole other way then you got (i can only support that by watching cnn by myself but i think that's was most americans do..?). Have never looked at israeli tv, but i seriously doubt that there is any pro palestine network in israel....

as i see it, most europeans doesn't consider them anything they aren't (exception: France ). Israel on the other side seems to think that they are something special, i mean they can have nuclear weapons, they can protect them self, they can do whatever, cause they are Israel, they can't harm anyone, but the shitty palestinians they have no right to protect themself, cause they are terrorists... right? i think YOU should realize that you are as shitty as everyone else.

I consider reposting the sleeping pic.
Oh wait, I'll just second Arbiter's one-liner. Makes a point more efficiently than all the debate here altogether.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant I consider reposting the sleeping pic. Oh wait, I'll just second Arbiter's one-liner. Makes a point more efficiently than all the debate here altogether.

Yea, what arbiter said. Israel's existence is perhaps one the greatest threats to world peace (if somehow someway, it were to spark off a global nuclear exchange ... not bloody likely), however, that in itself describes the true extent of the middle east conflict as well as 42 describes the answer to the ultimate question. You might as well make similar trivial, inane statements such as "money is the root of all evil" whereby ignoring human nature altogether

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Yoepus But this isn't the question at all.. The real shocking thing here is that the EUROPEANS BELEIVE ISRAEL IS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST THREAT! I really don't understand why you guys are clamoring to this.. Ok fine, lets assume your position, Israel is a horrible abuser of human rights, and is an aparthiat state. This does not threaten the world! North Korea oppressing its own people in and off itself does not threaten the world, it is the aggressive nature of the North Koreans and their relentless pursuit of selling and aquiring illicit arms to illicit organizations. I would think you guys could at least agree to yes Israel is a big threat to world peace, but it is not THE BIGGEST threat. I mean common even the Iran' Ayotollah's only call Israel "Little Satan", the USA is of course the "Big Satan". I mean it seems you fanaticism has gone so far to judge everything that brands Israel evil as a legitimate and logical reality! It's not! I would be as appaled at the Europeans were they to say the Palestinians are the biggest threat to world peace!! They're not, they're the biggest threat to Israel's peace, not the worlds, not even the middle east!! Amazing how you guys seem so blinded by your hate to Israel you refuse to concede even such a netrual point... I wish I could say I'm suprised, I really have come to accept many arguments form you, since you try to bring this in a fair light from the otherside of the conflict, but this, this is just well words can't describe.

Apparently very few of you have actually read the darn article in full. It says:

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Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row. The survey, conducted in October, of 500 people from each of the EU's member nations included a list of 15 countries with the question, 'tell me if in your opinion it presents or not a threat to peace in the world'. Israel was reportedly picked by 59 per cent of those interviewed.

In other words: 7500 persons were handed a list of four countries and asked to tick off those countries which presents a threat to peace in the world - in their view. Nobody was asked to rate which country presented a bigger threat, and nobody was given a free choice among all nations of the world.

Now, what can we conclude from that? That about 4500 people in Europe thinks that Israel presents a threat to world peace. The leap to the sentiment "EUROPEANS BELEIVE ISRAEL IS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST THREAT!" is a giant one.

As a European (who wasn't polled) I would have ticked Israel as well. (I would tick North Korea too, if that makes any difference.) In the last year I have heard of Israel attacking sites in Syria and in Lebanon, in addition to the usual mayhem in the occupied territories. I call that a threat to world peace, no matter if the behaviour is responses to suicide attacks or not.

On to:

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Originally posted by Flotser it only shows how much the news reports in eourope are biased. one of the officials of the Israeli Foreign ministry, gave scary exmpales for this from Spanish news-papers, one them was, that right after the suicide bombing in Sbarro Restaurant in jerusalem (killing aporx. 20 people (i cant remember) ) the paper said : "Bush is worried that israel wants to exterminate the palestinian people"

Well that's what we call freedom of press in Europe. If Bush said something like that then it is his timing which is off the scale. Had the paper chosen to keep it under wraps, on the other hand, then it would indeed be guilty of showing bias.

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Originally posted by Izzy i agree. i'm even insulted by such a poll. there is nothing israel would like better then to live in peace with this world. i hate to generalize, but when i say that i am speaking for almost the entire israeli population

I believe that you are right. However, as long as the fundamentalists on your side are as rabbid as the ones on the Palestinean side, and you sane people cannot keep them in check, it really does not matter with regards to being a threat to world peace. Does it?

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Originally posted by Izzy the difference between some of the middle east countries and israel is that in israel the government actively seeks to punish and destroy any terrorist infrastructure that's within the country. They do not create a haven for them. there were already a few threads in here showing this. however none of this takes place in the arab countries, infact some of the governments even appease the terrorist orginizations within their country with bribes to keep quiet (ala saudia arabia) or straight up funding them (ala iran)

Once again: I think that you are right on Iran and Saudia Arabia. I wonder what sources you build your beliefs on? After all, the official US-policy is that Saudia Arabia is a friendly country, right? And I guess that your info on Iran comes from the official US-information? Consistency?

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Originally posted by Yoepus ... Israel on the otherhand has no proxy organization and does not mendle in other countries' foreign affairs via the use of any such proxies.

How about Mossad (spelling?)? I seem to remember a pretty ill-fated assasination attempt in Syria or Jordan some years ago?

Turning back to the article:

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The leaking of the results of the poll to El Pais and the International Herald Tribune has sparked a bitter row, with a major Jewish human rights and lobbying group, the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, demanding that the EU be excluded from the Israel-Palestinian peace process and accusing Europe of suffering the worst outbreak of 'anti-semitism' since World War Two. ... Israeli Ministers and spokesman have also been at pains recently to insist that a definition of modern 'anti-semitism' should include criticism of the way the state of Israel chooses to protect itself, defining that criticism as an overt attack on Israel's survival. Reacting to the poll, the Simon Wies enthal Centre, which claims 400,000 members in the US alone, has begun ordering a petition to condemn the European Commission and demand the EU no longer be represented in the so-called Quartet group trying to mediate an end to violence between Israel and Palestine. ... 'This shocking result that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace, bigger than North Korea and Iran, defies logic and is a racist flight of fantasy that only shows that anti-semitism is deeply embedded within European society, more then at any other period since the end of the war,' he added.

I cannot stand when supposedly educated persons fall into the trap of generalization and verbal abuse. An anti-semitist is someone who hate Jews as a racial, ethnic or religious group. If having a sceptical attitude towards the way Israel chooses to handle its conflicts is to be called anti-semitic (or racist) as well, how would you differentiate between Hitler-like fellows and those of us who fall into the latter group?

I really cannot see why the fact that I fail to condone every step taken by the Sharon government, should equate me with Neo-nazis and the like. Actually, the above snippets of text only serves to enrage me, and will probably not win any new followers of the Zionist cause.

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Originally posted by trancaholic Apparently very few of you have actually read the darn article in full. It says: In other words: 7500 persons were handed a list of four countries and asked to tick off those countries which presents a threat to peace in the world - in their view. Nobody was asked to rate which country presented a bigger threat, and nobody was given a free choice among all nations of the world. Now, what can we conclude from that? That about 4500 people in Europe thinks that Israel presents a threat to world peace. The leap to the sentiment "EUROPEANS BELEIVE ISRAEL IS THE WORLD'S BIGGEST THREAT!" is a giant one.

Why is this such a leap, polls in the US ask smaller percentages of people who they would vote for president and pollsters use this data to calculate who is "favored presidential canidate", are you completly unfimilar with pollage methodology?

Like it or not, more people selected Israel as a threat more times than ANY OTHER country on the poll, these countries included Afghanistan, Iran, and North Korea.
Even among few choices (I don't know where you read that they were given few options, but ok assumign it is) it is really amazing the ammount of Europeans (the majority of Europeans, hence the generalization Europeans believe) that have selected Israel as a threat to peace.

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As a European (who wasn't polled) I would have ticked Israel as well. (I would tick North Korea too, if that makes any difference.)

Yes it does make a difference, as if you would have ticked North Korea, as I am sure others have as well, you would get much higher numbers of Europeans who believe tht North Korea is a great threat to the world. But less Europeans "also ticked North Korea", hence the problem.

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I call that a threat to world peace, no matter if the behaviour is responses to suicide attacks or not.

The only logic I have heard here so far is that Israel is a threat to world pecae because what it CAN do to other countries as a response. No one here is implying Israel would right out conquer unilateraly any country, what they fear is a severe response to a cruel act of terror that would further incite violence. It's just a silly world view, using this logic if the actions any country takes in its defense are viewed so highly against world peace, then definetly we would check a lot more countries as threats, just because say if Pakistan were to attack India it would doom the world, or say if Saudia Arabia was pissed at some Iraqi terrorist, it would overtly move into Iraq...

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Well that's what we call freedom of press in Europe. If Bush said something like that then it is his timing which is off the scale. Had the paper chosen to keep it under wraps, on the other hand, then it would indeed be guilty of showing bias.

And what of option C; Bush did not say anything like this at all?

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How about Mossad (spelling?)? I seem to remember a pretty ill-fated assasination attempt in Syria or Jordan some years ago?

Mossad is not a proxy organization, it is an offical yet covert government organization of Israel. Just like Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia have their own official intelligences organizations that operate clandistine operations. Many of these offical bodies of Arab countries however train and fund proxies instead of take actions into their own hands.

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I cannot stand when supposedly educated persons fall into the trap of generalization and verbal abuse. An anti-semitist is someone who hate Jews as a racial, ethnic or religious group. If having a sceptical attitude towards the way Israel chooses to handle its conflicts is to be called anti-semitic (or racist) as well, how would you differentiate between Hitler-like fellows and those of us who fall into the latter group?

Don't forget your reading from the Gaurdian, they like to make their readers really mad about the world.. and I think they are over generalizing about this fact right here to inferiate people like you (so you'll like them).

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I really cannot see why the fact that I fail to condone every step taken by the Sharon government, should equate me with Neo-nazis and the like. Actually, the above snippets of text only serves to enrage me, and will probably not win any new followers of the Zionist cause.

You don't have to agree with the logic here, but at least try to udnerstand, since you said you failed to see it;

Israel is a Jewish state
The best interest of the Jewish state is its survival, its existance.
The Government of Israel acts in the best interest of the Jewish state
<-- The Government of Israel is democratic
Arguing against the Government of Israel is arguing against the best interest of the Jewish state
Therefore, arguing against the government, you are arguing against the existance of Israel.

Fine I agree it is a far reach but then again when you "condone every step taken by the Sharon government" you are infact arguing that either you disagree that the Israeli government has not done one thing to try and better the interest of Israel, its existance, or you are arguing that you do not believe in the interest of Israel (hence the antisemitic assumption). Since it is hard to argue that even the worst leader don't do things in their country's best interest, the assumption most people make are that you are antisemitic.

That is just showing you the logic of the argument, I believe it has some, especially when you claim you do not believe in ANY actions taken by the Israeli government.
I mean, god damn I even support/supported a few steps taken by Arafat's government, and Saddams...



As for the debate on European immunity to propoganda, Europeans have been historically very susceptible to propaganda (think just less then 60 years ago), and it would be silly of you to assume that just because you live in a little time has passed this has magically disappeared.

I don't believe you can really justify that Israel should be chosen by a majority of Europeans as a threat to world peace more then any other country in the world as a justification of their intelligence.

I think Europeans need to get off their high and mighty enlightened horse, and take sometime to reflect on themsleves instead of just others. Try and solve your own problems perhaps, before trying to solve the worlds.

Israel views itself as no different from the rest of the world. It just wants to live in peace with its neighbors, preserve its nationalistic identity, and be entitled the same meassres self-defense any other country would wish upon itself to behold.

yeah, it's all the Europeans fault, the Israeli's did nothing

jeez

I am not saying that the poll is good, but blaming it all on the media and the Europeans is pretty damn lame if you tell me.

A little bit more self-criticism might come in handy on this moment. So I ask you, why is Israel #1?

Is it only because of the Europeans?
Is it only because of the media?
Is it because those two combined?

or is there also a little part called Israel that might have done the trick for the top-ranking from Israel?

nah, probably not...

edit:

I would like to add one thing. I do not agree with this poll, I think is is utter crap to put Israel on #1, but I think that a little self-criticism is in place when we talk about Israel. Because it isn't the most proper country in the world either (it doesn't even come in the neighbourhood)

edit2:

The European media is in general PRO-Israel

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Alsof Het G*dverdomme Himmel Niks Kost!!!

Last edited by Blik on Nov-03-2003 at 23:48

great post Vesa, I wish more Europeans were like you

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Originally posted by Yoepus Israel is a Jewish state The best interest of the Jewish state is its survival, its existance. The Government of Israel acts in the best interest of the Jewish state <-- The Government of Israel is democratic Arguing against the Government of Israel is arguing against the best interest of the Jewish state Therefore, arguing against the government, you are arguing against the existance of Israel.

very paranoid fked up logic there, I disagre with Sharon and all of a sudeen i want all my jewish friends dead......

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Why do u call everyone and everyting Biased because they are against your regime??it seems to me that since u are not hearing what u wanna hear u call everything and everyone biased.Why dont you at least admit that ur government is an optical against the peace in middle east,and yes I know bothe sides have done things wrong,Iam not saying the Palastinian government is perfect either. I just hope you realize that Isreali government isnt great as you might think. So please stop calling everything that is against your beliefs biased.

I'm just wondering, since you seem to always have such a negative view of Israel.

What would you do if you found yourself as their elected leader? How would you deal with terror? Would you just pray for it to end? I'm really interested to know.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Why is this such a leap, polls in the US ask smaller percentages of people who they would vote for president and pollsters use this data to calculate who is "favored presidential canidate", are you completly unfimilar with pollage methodology?

My job is to teach people and do research in probability theory and statistics, so I am familiar with polling methodology. And I can tell you that polling 500 people in each country (which in small Denmark equates less than 0.01% of the population) is a very sketchy basis for drawing conclusions. Furthermore, the basis of all statistical theory is that "the unlikely do not happen", which has as consequence that one in twenty properly conducted statistical inferences will be wrong. That is why I rarely accept statistical "facts" as ground truths - and in this case, where the sample size is so small I definitely have reservations.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Even among few choices (I don't know where you read that they were given few options, but ok assumign it is)...

I was wrong (reread it this morning). It was 15 countries - not four. This kind of ruins my point - but I would like to know whether the list included countries such as the US and Saudia Arabia, though.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Yes it does make a difference, as if you would have ticked North Korea, as I am sure others have as well, you would get much higher numbers of Europeans who believe tht North Korea is a great threat to the world. But less Europeans "also ticked North Korea", hence the problem.

But we do not know how many ticked off North Korea. It might have been 58% - in which case the study loses much of its shocking effect?!?

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Originally posted by Yoepus And what of option C; Bush did not say anything like this at all?

If that is the case, then the paper is not only guilty of bias, but more importantly of deliberately misleading its readers.
When I think of "biased" media, I think of little things such as describing suicide bombers as "murderous" or Israeli attacks as "brutal". That is, using loaded language to deliver a point. Also reporting about attacks from only one side of the fence would be bias. Fabricating news is in another league.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Mossad is not a proxy organization, it is an offical yet covert government organization of Israel. Just like Iran, Syria, and Saudia Arabia have their own official intelligences organizations that operate clandistine operations. Many of these offical bodies of Arab countries however train and fund proxies instead of take actions into their own hands.

So when some Arab countries train "proxies" it differs from when Israel trains its agents in what way?

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Originally posted by Yoepus Don't forget your reading from the Gaurdian, they like to make their readers really mad about the world.. and I think they are over generalizing about this fact right here to inferiate people like you (so you'll like them).

Yet you bought the main point of the article with no hesitation, didn't you? Furthermore, the snippets I quoted, is quotes themselves. If the Guardian tampers with quotes, then I guess they are way beyond over-generalizing, and the misquoted individual would do well to distance himself from the quotes.

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Originally posted by Yoepus You don't have to agree with the logic here, but at least try to udnerstand, since you said you failed to see it; Israel is a Jewish state The best interest of the Jewish state is its survival, its existance. The Government of Israel acts in the best interest of the Jewish state <-- The Government of Israel is democratic Arguing against the Government of Israel is arguing against the best interest of the Jewish state Therefore, arguing against the government, you are arguing against the existance of Israel.

I do not agree on "The government of Israel acts in the best interest of the Jewish state" - which happened to be my point. Thus, your argument fails, and I am therefore not arguing against the existance of Israel.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Fine I agree it is a far reach but then again when you "condone every step taken by the Sharon government" you are infact arguing that either you disagree that the Israeli government has not done one thing to try and better the interest of Israel, its existance, or you are arguing that you do not believe in the interest of Israel (hence the antisemitic assumption). Since it is hard to argue that even the worst leader don't do things in their country's best interest, the assumption most people make are that you are antisemitic. That is just showing you the logic of the argument, I believe it has some, especially when you claim you do not believe in ANY actions taken by the Israeli government. I mean, god damn I even support/supported a few steps taken by Arafat's government, and Saddams...

Read what I wrote once more:

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I really cannot see why the fact that I fail to condone every step taken by the Sharon government, should equate me with Neo-nazis and the like.

That is: I do not condone every step taken by the Sharon government -> There exists step(s) taken by the Sharon government which I disagree with.
That is not: I do not condone every step taken by the Sharon government -> I disagree with all steps taken by the Sharon government.

I would be grateful if you - keeping these corrections in mind - could show me how that makes me an anti-semite.

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Originally posted by Vesa Finnish TV programs about foreign policy issues are usually PC-approved. For example, I recently watched a four-hour TV series about the reasons of warfare, which was made to be shown at Finnish schools. They tried to explain every war by environmental factors, not once considering war as an inherent trait of human nature, nor as an act of self-defense. No wonder if Finnish pupils become anti-Israel after watching years of unrealistic peace propaganda at school.

It must be soooooo bad to teach pupils that there is other solutions than war. Cause war is the best we can get right?

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There haven't been wars in Western Europe for 60 years. The lack of grass-roots experience in survival-motivated military action has led Europe to a situation where some European politicians make decisions based on idealism, not realism.

Or maybe the total destruction after a war lead to understanding that war isn't the best solution..

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Originally posted by Yoepus great post Vesa, I wish more Europeans were like you

Blik, i agree with you on all your points =)

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Originally posted by trancaholic But we do not know how many ticked off North Korea. It might have been 58% - in which case the study loses much of its shocking effect?!?

"According to the Eurobarometer poll, based on interviews with 500 people in each of the 15 EU states, some 59 percent of Europeans replied "yes" when asked whether or not Israel presents a threat to peace in the world.

A total of 53 percent said Iran, North Korea and the United States pose a threat, followed by 52 percent for Iraq, 50 percent for Afghanistan and 48 percent for Pakistan."

a 6% difference between israel and Iran, NK & US

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.