quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 With freedom of speech comes responsibility, I read it in American Government last year. I'll have to pull the book out again, if I can find it. But, with every freedom comes a responsibility. If you know what I mean. Going out and being immature,calling people names,and being rude with your mouth isn't being responsible, you can get in trouble for shooting your mouth off when you shouldn't.

Correct. Inciting a riot is one example where freedom of speech is exempt.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Hey definitely my intention is not to offend Southerners as a people, this is simply an opinion on my part in the context of politics, not lifestyle, accents, decorum, attittudes,etc. We must admit that the influence of the South on the electoral process at the national level is profound. I was making reference to the fact that I saw quite a few opinions from the South on Bush's speech and you heard themes such as "it was a terrific speech, God Bless America, its nice that he was against homosexuality because its a sin, Bush is making America more secure, etc. How can anyone offer up a worthwile defence for a man who has led our nation into war and failed to verify the claims that he made before the nation about Iraq, I would under no circumstance supported the Iraq war if it was simply to get rid of Hussein, as it now seems to have been the case. Now I look back on it Iraq posed no more of a threat than North Korea, Iran, etc. Maybe the South will wake up and realize that young Americans have died in a foreign land and it is time for G.W. Bush to be held accountable for his lies eminating from Washington. This administration no longer represents the American people, but its own clique. Why are there no W.M.Ds in Iraq, why are there fewer American jobs under Bush, why is it only the U.S. that should be spreading "democracy" in the Middle East, why is it that the compassionate conservative and the leave no child behind candidate in 2000 is at odds with those very statements right now, why is it that the patriotism of any American has to be questioned if they are against this government's policies, I am an American but will no longer blindly say that Bush is a positive leader for this nation, he is not. I just hope the South awakens to this reality.

Well saying something like " southerners scare me..." That can def. be taken as an insult. You really have to watch how you word stuff.

Yes,It was an excellent speech. He did a very good job. He hasn't failed, I assure you.

This makes me sick, Everyones platform getting in the way. Drop conservatism for a moment, Drop liberalism for a moment. Put both aside.

Put your feet into an Iraqi persons shoes. These people were raped, beaten, gased, put into shredders,You name it.
We didn't just go in to take out Saddam,"for revenge" or to make us look good, We went to liberate the people. Now, they don't have to be afraid anymore. Many US soldiers were telling us back here that hundreds,even thousands of families came to them and thanked them for what they'd done. Of course you and I don't see that on the news! Because the media won't let it be shown, Not even Fox shows it. It's really sad to, We've done these people a favor and I for one am glad to see them not under oppression anymore. That's one of the main reasons we went over there. We've done our job well. As for the WMD's, They are there. Just give us time, We've already started finding things. If you want to ignore that, Go ahead but it's right there in the news.

Bush hasn't lied, and if anyone, I think it's the south that has their heads on straight. The south is mainly military, IF you didn't know. Of course we all know about the lives being lost, A lot of those men and women come from the south. Didn't you know?

This administration represents the American people. Bush and his administration are doing a good job.

Now, I know for a fact there are not fewer jobs under Bush. For example,Where my father works... He said there are way more jobs than people can fill. There are always help wanted signs up everywhere. There aren't enough people to fill the jobs. So our economy is just fine, I have no idea what you're complaining about.

The south is awake, It's known all along. We're not stupid, We know exactly what's going on.

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~Nessa

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Well saying something like " southerners scare me..." That can def. be taken as an insult. You really have to watch how you word stuff. Yes,It was an excellent speech. He did a very good job. He hasn't failed, I assure you. This makes me sick, Everyones platform getting in the way. Drop conservatism for a moment, Drop liberalism for a moment. Put both aside. Put your feet into an Iraqi persons shoes. These people were raped, beaten, gased, put into shredders,You name it. We didn't just go in to take out Saddam,"for revenge" or to make us look good, We went to liberate the people. Now, they don't have to be afraid anymore. Many US soldiers were telling us back here that hundreds,even thousands of families came to them and thanked them for what they'd done. Of course you and I don't see that on the news! Because the media won't let it be shown, Not even Fox shows it. It's really sad to, We've done these people a favor and I for one am glad to see them not under oppression anymore. That's one of the main reasons we went over there. We've done our job well. As for the WMD's, They are there. Just give us time, We've already started finding things. If you want to ignore that, Go ahead but it's right there in the news. Bush hasn't lied, and if anyone, I think it's the south that has their heads on straight. The south is mainly military, IF you didn't know. Of course we all know about the lives being lost, A lot of those men and women come from the south. Didn't you know? This administration represents the American people. Bush and his administration are doing a good job. Now, I know for a fact there are not fewer jobs under Bush. For example,Where my father works... He said there are way more jobs than people can fill. There are always help wanted signs up everywhere. There aren't enough people to fill the jobs. So our economy is just fine, I have no idea what you're complaining about. The south is awake, It's known all along. We're not stupid, We know exactly what's going on.

You seem to be under the impression that I am launching a personal attack on Southerners as a culture, I must once again re-emphasize that this is not the case, my uncle lives in the heart of Texas in Houston, another lives in Virginia and served in the U.S. Navy. At one point in time I may have shared your beliefs about this president but no longer is that the case. He lost my respect a while back when I watched our Secretary of State stand before the world in New York at the U.N. and claim what different weapons programs Iraq has, none of which has been corroborated in any capacity. I ask you this question if Iraq posed an immediate threat to our nation, then what was that threat, how did it directly affect us, the only reason I supported this war was because of the claims of W.M.D. and lets be correct none has been found, not one, if you have a source that shows me otherwise and that they posed an immediate threat to us then please be obliged to post it on the forum. The South as you say may be awake but are they getting the whole picture of the Iraq conflict and where it has left our nation in the eyes of credibility on world issues No longer does Bush reserve the right to lay claims of W.M.D. against any nation and he is going to be believed by informed people, he lost that right when he stopped making mention of it in his speeches and statements in regards to Iraq, wonder why that is the current case.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan He lost my respect a while back when I watched our Secretary of State stand before the world in New York at the U.N. and claim what different weapons programs Iraq has, none of which has been corroborated in any capacity. I ask you this question if Iraq posed an immediate threat to our nation, then what was that threat, how did it directly affect us, the only reason I supported this war was because of the claims of W.M.D.

I believe the terminology used was not an "immediate" threat, but rather an "imminent" threat, which is a much more politically neutral way of saying, "at some point, sooner rather than later, Iraq will directly pose a threat to the U.S." This is a statement that doesn't imply an "if", but a "when". Many in the military have always believed that with terrorists it has never been an issue of "if", rather always "when" they will choose to attack. Saddam had connections with terrorist organizations, Saddam harbored terrorists, Saddam had used chemical and biological weapons on his own people in the 80's and 90's. All he needed to do was put someone on another plane and have them hijack it and slam into a building, or just crash it. Saddam tried to assasinate Bush I. Not to mention the 10+ U.N. resolutions he was already violoating, and then 1441 to really shine the world on--almost like saying "I dare you to come in here and make me leave--this is MY Iraq".

No offense NYTrancefan, but Saddam needed to go, and he needed to go sooner rather than later. I'm sorry you feel like the only justification would've been if the WMD's had already been found, but that was really just a talking point in the end. Funny how according to Howard Dean it's perfectly fine (an obligation at that) to go into Bosnia/Kosovo for humanitarian reasons, but it's not enough of a reason to go to Iraq, aside from the other facts already mentioned? Saddam Hussein is a madman with bad intentions--I feel no remorse for going into Iraq to liberate the country from a brutal dictator--history will show that it was the right thing to do.

And as for Southerners, I think you're still living in the 60's if you think they are not as intelligent as you. I think you're getting flamed now for making a broad, false generalization. And FYI, neither Texas or Virginia really counts as the South. Any Texan will tell you that Texas is it's own country (with a smile of course), and Virginia is so borderline that it really doesn't speak for the South. Just because Robert E. Lee was from Virginia doesn't make it a good representative state of the South.

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Originally posted by Shakka And as for Southerners, I think you're still living in the 60's if you think they are not as intelligent as you. I think you're getting flamed now for making a broad, false generalization. And FYI, neither Texas or Virginia really counts as the South. Any Texan will tell you that Texas is it's own country (with a smile of course), and Virginia is so borderline that it really doesn't speak for the South. Just because Robert E. Lee was from Virginia doesn't make it a good representative state of the South.

Whoa hold up dude, where did I once state that Southerners are not intelligent or as intelligent as me. Highlight clearly for me where that is the case, and there is no flaming towards my comment, I went out of my way a couple of times to explain to WhoaNellie that I am in no way some northern, liberal yuppie that believes that Southerners are bucked tooth hicks. I feel that maybe it is the thread title that leaves a lot to be desired. So for once and for all let me say that my opinion is in regards to the South's polical stance that is it, nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing special up here in NYC that makes it better than the South in any capacity. So for all Southerners who may view my opinion as an insult that is not my desire, this is simply a matter of politics, hence the forum

If you were to review my statements on this board you will see that there was a time when I would have agreed with you about Saddam Hussein having to go, but should a war be done simply to necessitate that alone on the part of the U.S. If we operate on that premise then many more nations should be invaded on the principles of liberation from human suffering, otherwise the Bush policy becomes hypocritical in leaving a lot of other parts of the world suffering under brutal, oppressive, maniacal dictators, North Korea for example.

The irony of all this is that at one point on this forum I would have defended Bush tooth and nail, no longer is that the case, let him demonstrate that he is a compassionate conservative and will leave no child behind as he claimed so often. The man is a hypocrite in his statements and I will bid him adeu from the White House without a second thought, its time that Americans benefit from record budget deficit instead of overseas wars and large corporations.

If you can accept the loss of American lives in Iraq without any weapons being discovered, while many of the supposed Iraqis that we are freeing are still killing U.S. troops including 2 more today, people are looking at the U.S. as the greatest threat to stability thanks to one man and the impression being left that we now live in Fort U.S.A. then that is your position, I resoundingly however disagree.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Jan-22-2004 at 22:53

Shakka, I invite you to read the thread I just made, by the own man David Kay.

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Upcoming:

Michael Andrews Feat. Gary Jules - Mad World (Grayed Out Mix)

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka I believe the terminology used was not an "immediate" threat, but rather an "imminent" threat, which is a much more politically neutral way of saying, "at some point, sooner rather than later, Iraq will directly pose a threat to the U.S." This is a statement that doesn't imply an "if", but a "when".

How was iraq's shitty army or saddam any sort of threat to my country?

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Originally posted by Shakka Many in the military have always believed that with terrorists it has never been an issue of "if", rather always "when" they will choose to attack. Saddam had connections with terrorist organizations, Saddam harbored terrorists

Yeah terrorist against Israel, not the US. I doubt many people in the US would go along with helping Israel, especially the KKK south. Besides Israel can protect themselves well enough with all the goodies we gave them

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Originally posted by Shakka Saddam had used chemical and biological weapons on his own people in the 80's and 90's.

LOL oh man, you do know who supported and gave him chemical and biological weapons right?

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Originally posted by Shakka All he needed to do was put someone on another plane and have them hijack it and slam into a building, or just crash it. Saddam tried to assasinate Bush I. Not to mention the 10+ U.N. resolutions he was already violoating, and then 1441 to really shine the world on--almost like saying "I dare you to come in here and make me leave--this is MY Iraq".

Saddam only wanted to be a cool dude and hang out with the world super powers, just ask the CIA. Anyway Saddam was never a threat to us. Hey Israel violated alot more than 10 UN resolutions, wtf are they still our ally? oh don't forget our cool ally Uzbekistan too who had/has a leader worse than Saddam.

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Originally posted by Shakka No offense NYTrancefan, but Saddam needed to go, and he needed to go sooner rather than later.

I agree he needed to go, but not at our expense. Let the people rise up and so on, but it looks like that is going to happen soon anyway with all the Iraq civil war news bits i've heard.

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Originally posted by Shakka I'm sorry you feel like the only justification would've been if the WMD's had already been found, but that was really just a talking point in the end.

Hey Bush said WMDs, not liberate some towel heads or to protect some jewsbags from saddam. I doubt many people would of been up for that, especially how I phrased it in the way many people think about arabs and israelis.

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Originally posted by Shakka Funny how according to Howard Dean it's perfectly fine (an obligation at that) to go into Bosnia/Kosovo for humanitarian reasons, but it's not enough of a reason to go to Iraq, aside from the other facts already mentioned? Saddam Hussein is a madman with bad intentions--I feel no remorse for going into Iraq to liberate the country from a brutal dictator--history will show that it was the right thing to do.

Funny how we are just spending money out of our ass and have no real allies besides the UK to help out, unlike how it went in Bosnia/Kosovo. I'm glad Iraqi's are somewhat better off, well except for the women. Also seriously how can you say that when we created Saddam and support Uzbekistan.

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Originally posted by Shakka And as for Southerners, I think you're still living in the 60's if you think they are not as intelligent as you. I think you're getting flamed now for making a broad, false generalization. And FYI, neither Texas or Virginia really counts as the South. Any Texan will tell you that Texas is it's own country (with a smile of course), and Virginia is so borderline that it really doesn't speak for the South. Just because Robert E. Lee was from Virginia doesn't make it a good representative state of the South.

Excuse me but my sister lives in Texas and agrees with what NYTrancefan stated it out to be, well everywhere outside of the major cities such as Dallas. No comment on Virginia though.

Whatever, dude. Defend your position, I'll defend mine.

I hardly believe that the U.S. purposefully created some eveil monster, hoping that he would eventually murder hundreds of thousands of people and ultimately be a threat to the people whom had helped him 30 years prior. That's what they were going for alright. And now the Americans who put him there have realized they're wrong and are trying to fix the situation, right? Oh, yeah, by your argument you're saying he should still be in power, otherwise you'd have to admit that he was a bad person.

It would be ok for someone 30 years ago to make what would turn around to be a catastrophic mistake, but it wouldn't be alright for anyone in the future to right the situation, if that really were the case? That argument just doesn't jive with me.

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Originally posted by Shakka Whatever, dude. Defend your position, I'll defend mine. I hardly believe that the U.S. purposefully created some eveil monster, hoping that he would eventually murder hundreds of thousands of people and ultimately be a threat to the people whom had helped him 30 years prior. That's what they were going for alright. And now the Americans who put him there have realized they're wrong and are trying to fix the situation, right? Oh, yeah, by your argument you're saying he should still be in power, otherwise you'd have to admit that he was a bad person. It would be ok for someone 30 years ago to make what would turn around to be a catastrophic mistake, but it wouldn't be alright for anyone in the future to right the situation, if that really were the case? That argument just doesn't jive with me.

yes just ignore history i never said saddam was an angel, and yes him being in power still would be better for us and the women in iraq seeing how they are worse off not to mention this upcoming civil war. guess senior bush was right, taking out saddam would be/was a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Any Texan will tell you that Texas is it's own country (with a smile of course)

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Put your feet into an Iraqi persons shoes. These people were raped, beaten, gased, put into shredders,You name it. We didn't just go in to take out Saddam,"for revenge" or to make us look good, We went to liberate the people. Now, they don't have to be afraid anymore. Many US soldiers were telling us back here that hundreds,even thousands of families came to them and thanked them for what they'd done. Of course you and I don't see that on the news! Because the media won't let it be shown, Not even Fox shows it. It's really sad to, We've done these people a favor and I for one am glad to see them not under oppression anymore. That's one of the main reasons we went over there. We've done our job well.

I tend to disagree with you on this issue. You see, the iraqi people were often murdered, yes, but not because they were innocent, it was because they wanted to topple Saddam's regime. The general population was largely unaffected. But, since the US forces invaded, the situation has largely turned worse. The security situation is horrible, unemployment rate is at about 50% and people are more often than not left without electrical power and water. Not really some improvement over the previous condition.

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As for the WMD's, They are there. Just give us time, We've already started finding things. If you want to ignore that, Go ahead but it's right there in the news.

Heh, I see the news come up every few days with claims of "new brekahtroughs" in wmd search, but so far they have always been proven false. Even the white house now admits there most likely aren't any wmds. Which brings it into direct conflict with everything they claimed prior to the war.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I tend to disagree with you on this issue. You see, the iraqi people were often murdered, yes, but not because they were innocent, it was because they wanted to topple Saddam's regime. The general population was largely unaffected. But, since the US forces invaded, the situation has largely turned worse. The security situation is horrible, unemployment rate is at about 50% and people are more often than not left without electrical power and water. Not really some improvement over the previous condition. Heh, I see the news come up every few days with claims of "new brekahtroughs" in wmd search, but so far they have always been proven false. Even the white house now admits there most likely aren't any wmds. Which brings it into direct conflict with everything they claimed prior to the war.

I'd trust a US soldier over you anyday(no offense). There have been letters come back from the US soldiers over there, they have said quite the opposite. Things in Iraq are improving,not getting worse, again the media doesn't show this.

No,They haven't been proven false. Infact, there was something shown on the drudge report a few days ago, I'll ask my dad if he can dig it up. ( It might not be there since it's older news ) but, something has been found leading to that, and it wasn't " Proven false ".

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~Nessa