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Originally posted by astroboy I suppose you've read it then? In Arabic?... as Arabic poetic metaphor (which most of the Qur'an is written in) usually suffers heavily during translation.

I have read it but not in arabic. I am not saying that all of Kuran is nonsensical ramble, but a pretty large part of it is.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Nobody denied that the Arab world made great contributions to science and technology in historic times. In fact I believe it has already been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately you are (not surprisingly) lacking evidence to support your assertion that the current state is due to a "lack of funding". That logic is at best dubious, but more like blatantly fallacious, since more than a few Arab countries are filthy rich from their oil. It's what they do with the money that's the problem. I have a feeling that a lot of Arabs are going to take this thread personally, and in a way I can't really blame them, but you really should understand that nobody is putting down Arabs as a race - just highlighting some of the problems with the Arabic nations. And I agree that Nobel prize winners are not exactly the best indicator (although it should be somewhat startling that so many Jews win it, since Jews comprise only a tiny fraction of the industrialized first world). I personally welcome anyone to present other indicators that might reflect a "healthy" situation - however, I think you may be disappointed with what you find (or don't find). Most of us can agree that there is indeed some problem - we just disagree on what's causing it.

well i got a couple if examples in mind if u need..Ahmed zewel who won a nobel prize doesnt live in egypt..one of the worlds lead heart surgeons, Dr MAgdi yakoub lives in europe now due to the lack of technology and lack of funds to carry his researches in egypt..n another simpler example is a person as myself..i like my country to expand my career of information technology and expand my knowledge..and like me alot more left the country for the same reason..if i had access to research facilites or well equiped computer labs i would have never left the country..for god sakes we dont have dsl over there yet hhahaha..enough evidence i think.

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Originally posted by Palestinian Basically you're saying that Arabs haven't won as many Nobel Prizes as Jews; therefore Arabs aren't very educated.

Yea that is exaclty what I'm saying

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Illan's stats spoke of the Global Islamic Population but only listed Arabs.

My mistake I thought he just mentioned Arabs.

However Arabs and Islam seem to share this trait. For instance, the closer a nation is to Arabia (Afghanistan, Iran, Paki...) the more they seem to share their culutre. As oppoed to Indonesia, which shares in in much less.

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What about all the Muslims who are non-Arab? They were not included in the stats. Maybe if they were, there would be more Muslim names on that list. And if there isn't, you still have to remember that the majority of the world's Muslims live in less-developed countries.

Go ahead, add them to the list. I'm curious what we will see.
You realize however that the muslim population then is billions not millions anymore right? If you don't find enough nobel winners, this will not help your argument (making it from 1 in 100,000,000 to 1 in 500,000,000 for instance).

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I also want you to know that many Arabs and Muslims have complained of bias against them in Western societies when it comes to evaluating them and their acheivements. I don't know the legitimacy of it, but I hear it a lot.

This is true and I won't deny it. This might also explain why Christian Arabs are higher educated, Western society is more likely to accept and outreach to them. However Jews face similar biases even today.

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I would like to point out that Arabs have contributed immensely to the world. The father of Algebra was an Arab. Much of modern medicine came from Arab innovation in the past.

This is welcome news as it proves I am not a racist ( ) It makes the point (that I share) that Arabs are as capable as anyone to be smart, intellectual and educated.

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Any talk against the oppressive state is silenced, usually with a haunting disappearance or a simple deportation.

This was not always the case. It is not silenced because it fuels extremism and the states have had to take very drastic meassures to prevent extremism. And in most cases this is what the "freedom of speech" is used for, extremism. Not democracy. Had the people not been called to extremisim, the governments would undoubtedly not feel threatened enough to put these draconian meassures in place. But I don't recall great democratic movements ever in Arabia.

Now having said that the quesiton would than be if there was "freedom of speech" in these countries, would it solve their problems and democratize them? I don't think so. It might encourage more extremism. The freedom of speech is in already in a way gauranteed to the intellectuals already through the western word (Arab newspapers abroad, Satilite TV, internet, etc...)

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State leaders are opposed to democratic reform. Demonstrations have taken place, and have been quelled violently.

Could you give some examples?
I know most leadlers are opposed to democratic reforms, but not all. The King of Jordan and Morocco have both welcomed it for instance. However, I don't recall any large rallies calling for democracy in Arabia that were quelled violently, maybe I am wrong.

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Wouldn't want to educated people too much. People must be subjected to a bubble. I've experienced this myself when I lived in the UAE. I was in a bubble. Everytime I go back, I feel it. Something difficult to explain but you can feel it. It hurts.

Yet nations like the UAE and Kuwait allow thier citizens the privilege of a university education for free. They don't go to their own Unversities however, they are so academically poor, instead they send them to the West for first rate education at the expense of the state (the very oil money).

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Arabs sit on the wealthies part of the world. Like you said-a gold mine. But do they own the gold mine? The state owns the gold mine.

My confusion. You'll have to excuse my communist leanings ( ) but isn't the state the people?

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Not the people. I don't have a say where the oil goes. Neither does any Arab I've ever met. Only the Sheikhs and Dictators have a say. What if I had a say? Do you think I would vote for oil to be traded with the United States? Maybe a little.

I don't really think the big deal here is the 'control of the oil', rather the control of the money from the oil. You'd probably care much more about the money going to schools, hospitals, roads, and day cares, than the pockets of some playboy Saudi prince.

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And this goes for millions of Arabs in the Middle East. There are those intellectuals who claim that if Arabs controlled the oil, they would rule the world.

Well you'd have to build a military first
So far your battle record in the past centure isn't that optimistic, but don't let me put you down :P

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Consider Sykes-Picot of 1916. Separated the Arab world into different countries literally with a ruler on a map.

Certainly though Arab states must be strong individually before they can be strong together. Afterall, look at the EU. Who do they accept? Only the states that meet their highest standards, why? Else the EU would collapse.

The US 'allowed' the EU to have a "European nation", I don't see why they would be opposed to an "Arab nation". Surely the European naiton is of greater threat to the US than the Arab one. Israel is another matter of course, but don't blame the failure on the Arab nation as the sole fault of Israel (though that would make us really happy).

The fact is until your nations are strong enough by themselves they will never be able ot be strong enough together. Look at all nations that are together. The US, Canada, EU, etc... only strong states form strong nations. When you have weak states (i.e. Yugoslaiva, Russia, etc) God help you.

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The intellectuals are fighting. A lot of this fighting is taking place in the western world where freedom of speech is much easier.

The extremist seem to be exercising their "freedom of speech" in the Arab world without any problem. Seems like an uphill battle to me. Which brings me to the quesiton, is this "freedom of speech" of the intellectuals actually state censorship or people cenorship?

For instance, after Sept 11th the Americans would go mad at you for critizing the Bush or the US, so people wouldn't. The government didn't stop them for saying that, but the people did. Two entirely different things.

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Who's funding the oppressive leaders of the Arab world?

The Arabs are. Who's paying the taxes for these Arab leaders?
The Americans? Right. US funding to these nations is pennies compared to their wealth.

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Who put many of these people in power? Do you know that the people didn't put these kings in power? Who did? They didn't do it on their own.

Many colonial powers put these "people in power". However, not always the Saudis for instance have been a dynasty for quiet a long time. And all these areas had Kings preceding the colonial powers. They just usually changed them.

The question is, why didn't the people take them OUT of power if they were opposed to them?

You could tell me they simply couldn't. But look at Iran (yes I know not Arab, but culturally very similar regardless), they were able to throw out their appointed King (of course putting in a bunch of the wrong guys in his stead.. not intellecutals, but extremists) so can't the rest of you?

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Palestinians under Israeli occupation before 1993 were NOT better off than Arabs in many Arab countries. Stop deluding yourself. Occupation is not freedom. Concentration camps are NOT freedom.

Your right, in that there is no way to evaluate liberty and how much it is a factor. However, I was considering more objective indicators like employment, income, education, % below poverty line, water, health, etc. All these objective indicators where much better for the Palestinian people before their self-rule.

Regardless, this doesn't take from the fact that Arab Israelis enjoy a very, very high standard of living. And that the West seems to have a positive impact on the liberties of Arabs, not worse.

Even Iraq, assuming its failing, when it 'was' succeeding seemed the most promising way to deliver democracy and liberty to the midddle east. I don't know, do you deny this? Maybe there are people that are.
After all, it was all about oil right?

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And perhaps you haven't heard of the intellectual movement, that's BECAUSE THEY ARE SUPPRESSED BY THE SAME THUGS AMERICA SUPPORTS. That's the message.

How come the intellectuals are suppressed by the same thugs American supports, and not the extremists?

Afterall, if I thought the west would support thugs it would be because they suppressed extremists.

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That's the point of my post. Stop supporting these leaders and let democracy flow! The more you suppress democracy, the more Islamic the movement gets, the more nationalism turns to Islamic fundamentalim. People get fed up. They turn to extremist measures. Study the trends and the 20th century history of the Arab people and American influence. This topic requires a lot of education to debate. I don't know if I will post on this again.

I am educated. Not to a doctoral level, but college educated none the less. Just because I take a different angle on this doesn't mean I am not. I haven't seen any trend in the 20th century that indicates Arabs strive to democracy. Even under Nasser's Pan-Arabism dream, he was the ruler, not the people.

And I don't support any of the Arab governments (except for Jordan, I like them ) I don't encourage their suppression of democracy. But the interesting I see is that these nations don't supress thier extremist, and as you claim they do supress their intellectuals.

You fcan say that, I don't think it has to do with supression. I simply don't think there are that much intellectuals to being with to supress. We are not hearing about them because they are not there, not because they are made quiet. This is the divergence in both our view points.

The nobel prize stat would help lean towards my view

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quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic well i got a couple if examples in mind if u need..Ahmed zewel who won a nobel prize doesnt live in egypt..one of the worlds lead heart surgeons, Dr MAgdi yakoub lives in europe now due to the lack of technology and lack of funds to carry his researches in egypt..n another simpler example is a person as myself..i like my country to expand my career of information technology and expand my knowledge..and like me alot more left the country for the same reason..if i had access to research facilites or well equiped computer labs i would have never left the country..for god sakes we dont have dsl over there yet hhahaha..enough evidence i think.

I understand that the research/educational facilities in many of these Arab countries are poor. I'm not denying that. Obviously, if they had the same caliber of universities and the same level of R&D as Israel or the USA, their countries would be far better off.

My point of contention is that it's not the Western world's responsibility to create that infrastructure or pump money into those nations' economies so that they can create it themselves. The USA has only been around a few centuries and it created it on its own. Canada has been around for even less time, and even though we don't have the same quality of [post-secondary] education as the USA, it's decent here too. Neither Canada nor the USA were "rich" countries in the beginning. They made that money and reached that economic status partially because of their democratic and educational values.

So yes you can blame the level of education on the infrastructure of those Arab nations, but I think that's self-evident. The point is that the infrastructure is poor because of the theocratic and totalitarian nature of these countries and the mass religious opposition to change of any kind. It's not because the USA is holding them back. They're holding themselves back.

Perhaps, some of these Arabs that have come to the USA and led such "privileged" lives and received such high educations will one day return to their home countries and use those superior educations to better the living conditions there? One can only hope - but somehow I feel doubtful.

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hehe it turned from jews vs islam to jews vs arabs.... jews _are_ also arabs.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I understand that the research/educational facilities in many of these Arab countries are poor. I'm not denying that. Obviously, if they had the same caliber of universities and the same level of R&D as Israel or the USA, their countries would be far better off. My point of contention is that it's not the Western world's responsibility to create that infrastructure or pump money into those nations' economies so that they can create it themselves. The USA has only been around a few centuries and it created it on its own. Canada has been around for even less time, and even though we don't have the same quality of [post-secondary] education as the USA, it's decent here too. Neither Canada nor the USA were "rich" countries in the beginning. They made that money and reached that economic status partially because of their democratic and educational values. So yes you can blame the level of education on the infrastructure of those Arab nations, but I think that's self-evident. The point is that the infrastructure is poor because of the theocratic and totalitarian nature of these countries and the mass religious opposition to change of any kind. It's not because the USA is holding them back. They're holding themselves back. Perhaps, some of these Arabs that have come to the USA and led such "privileged" lives and received such high educations will one day return to their home countries and use those superior educations to better the living conditions there? One can only hope - but somehow I feel doubtful.

u gotta point there..Arab countries are very strict due to religious belifs..it is hard to start anything new..it is hard to be liberal with ideas..the reason why people who live a privelegd life never return is that ur way of thinking changes..it is impossible to go back to a strict country when u r used to bein free..i mean people r so deprived when they see to people kiss in like an americam movie, u hear applaude in the theatre..it is just impossible to start something new..funniest thing i ever saw in egypt was when he had our presedential elections..no one is brave enuf to run against the president..i saw a banner that said we support u president mubarak in the elections n on the other side congratulations president mobarak hahahahaa..what i am tryin to say is arabs r really smart people, they just need a chance n it is hard to get in thier countries..

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Originally posted by DigiNut Allow me to take a leap of faith and assume your exact position - that the Arab world cannot progress toward democracy until it ceases to be influenced by external democracy (the US). I'm not sure how that works logically,...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Ok please help me understand your logic. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US and Israeli interest why? Because when the Arabs are in control of their own oil, they won't sell it the USA and Israel? What will they do then, keep it all to themselves? Might want to work on that theory a bit.

In 1953, after nationalizing the oil industry, democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh was overthrown in a coup by the CIA and British intelligence.

Alright I know Iran isn't an Arab country, but it's the only example I am familiar with and it is just one example of the USA trying to control the oil in the middle east, whether the people of that country wanted democracy or not.

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Originally posted by Superstar Alright I know Iran isn't an Arab country, but it's the only example I am familiar with and it is just one example of the USA trying to control the oil in the middle east, whether the people of that country wanted democracy or not.

I always find how people always change basically a British coup into an Ameircan with British support coup when it was the exact opposite

Regardless, the USA can obtain oil with Iraq if it chose to and in many indirect ways it does it. However, the US choses not to recongize the Iranian government, in kind the Iranian government doesn't chose to recongize the USA. And it wasn't till the Shas' revolution I believe till this happened.

If extremist take over control of the Arab nations, I don't doubt they woudl be much like Iran. The argument here is if the people take control of the Arab nations will they behave in the same fashion. I don't think so, I think they will sell their oil to the west, even if they 'don't want to'. Regardless, they will surely sell it to Europe and Asia which are the primary oil buyers of middle east oil regardless.

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Originally posted by tranceaholic u gotta point there..Arab countries are very strict due to religious belifs..it is hard to start anything new..it is hard to be liberal with ideas..the reason why people who live a privelegd life never return is that ur way of thinking changes..it is impossible to go back to a strict country when u r used to bein free..i mean people r so deprived when they see to people kiss in like an americam movie, u hear applaude in the theatre..it is just impossible to start something new..funniest thing i ever saw in egypt was when he had our presedential elections..no one is brave enuf to run against the president..i saw a banner that said we support u president mubarak in the elections n on the other side congratulations president mobarak hahahahaa..what i am tryin to say is arabs r really smart people, they just need a chance n it is hard to get in thier countries..

No argument from me there. As I said, I'm not a racist, I definitely don't have any problem with Arabs and there are in fact some damn smart ones in my university. It's just that the countries themselves - the way they are run - leave a lot to be desired, and the effect of this unfortunately gets transferred onto their populations, which are massive (there are what, maybe 50 million Arabs max out of 1 billion living outside the UAE?).

It is sad that, as in your example, people are afraid to challenge the president. Pretty far from democracy if you ask me. I'm not defending America's actions in Iraq, but all of this is begging the question, who IS fit to challenge the corrupt totalitarian regimes that are so common in the particular Arab-dominated region of the world that we're talking about? And is it even possible to do it nonviolently, since it is abundantly clear that the regime itself will turn violent when challenged in any way whatsoever?

Obviously, the best thing would be for Arabs themselves to challenge it. And chances are, if that ever happens, it would be Arabs who have lived in the more "privileged" countries, not the ones in those oppressed nations. But even the chances of that are low, since as you say, living here changes their way of thinking and they turn their backs on their home countries because they are oppressive.

There is no easy solution here. I think most people would be willing to venture that something should be done about the situation, but what, and how? I'm not pretending to know the answer, I'm just stating the question on clear terms.

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Ok, so are we killing jews or arabs? The title is kind of confusing and I want to make sure that I kill the right people.

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Originally posted by occrider Ok, so are we killing jews or arabs? The title is kind of confusing and I want to make sure that I kill the right people.

for good meassure, "KILL THEM ALLLLL!!!"

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