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Originally posted by arctic Great, so why are you subjecting us to the tedious task of reading your (highly informative) post?

Nor your response, buttnugget. No one really cares about European elections. No superpowers there.


[[[smoke]]]

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Originally posted by smokeape Nor your response, buttnugget. No one really cares about European elections. No superpowers there. [[[smoke]]]

Must be why the thread got 48 replies then. Sorry, but you are the one who doesn't care - don't presume to speak for others.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The thing is however is that the majority of people ruled by the UK do not consider themselves Irish at all.

The majority of people in Ireland consider themselves to be Irish.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic It is their own administration and the partition of the Island was done to accomodate political autonomy for the majority both North and South.

The undemocratic gerrymander of partition it was called.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic All whites are the same, we have a distinctive western culture and the vast majority are Christian. Different groups have different religions and cultures but it is truly utter shit to say that there is a serious difference between Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, American, Australian...Instead of concentrating on our similarities you Irish republicans attempt to highlight our differences when truly we arn't even genetically different to other white people across the world never mind culturally.

Of course there are great similarities. But let's not disengage from the issue, i.e. the stated wish of the majority of Irish people to see the country united, and this wish being denied through a unionist veto of 18%. By your logic above, the whole of the west should join together since we're all so similiar, yet a few posts back you were talking of voting for candidates that advocate pulling out of the EU (I'll assume it's because your Britishness is of more importance than being part of a collective European superstate).

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Originally posted by mixinmusic I am not talking about the law, I am talking about basic democracy

The Irish people voted as a unit in 1918 in and election that was described at the time as "an election for the freedom of Ireland", something a majority of the people endursed by voting for the candidates that, in their election campaign, stated they'd set up a Republic. The democratic wishes of the people were denied.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic is that so morally wrong?

Yes. If I thought British imperial rule (or imperialism orcastrated by any power) was right I wouldn't oppose it like I do.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Let me also make this clear, your posts suggest you are a big supported of a Palistinian state, yet that state would be set up based on this morally wrong gerrymandering how do you justify your stance?

No, it would be the ending of the occupation of Palestine and the destruction of a sectarian state founded in 1948. Palestine and the Palestinian people are a state and people currently occupied and oppressed by an artificial state. I'll not pretend to know much about the plight of the Palestinian people other than to recognise the solidarity between one resistance movement to another.
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Perhaps you would like to test that anti-secterianism for me and walk into a Falls road bar with a Rangers shirt on declaring you are a proud protestant and sing the UK national anthem?

There are sectarians on both sides, and for a person to be attacked simply because of their religion or because they're a unionist is sectarianism, not Republicanism. A person can't be both Republican and sectarian, they're complete opposites. But to answer your question, most people on the Falls would be offended by the singing of the national anthem of a state that has inflicted as much damage as it has on their community. Republicans aren't anti-protestant, look at the history of the movement, and I personally know Protestants Republicnas and Protestants who are members of the Republican movement. Sectarianism and Republicanism going hand in hand is an untruth spouted by people (particularly the British and Irish establishments) in an attempt to make people believe it and as a result undermine support for the movement.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic There is no doubt that PIRA are terriorists, murdering thousands of their own people has hardly furthered any political goal...

The most recent phase of the campaign hasn't achieved the ultimate goal which is a British declaration of intent to withdraw. Although the social conditions that existed under the old stormont regime are no longer there, and that's due largely to Stormont being brought down in the '70s (an achievement of the IRA).

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Originally posted by mixinmusic They have murdered (sic) thousands of army and police and I see no place for that either in a civilised society. Those people have families

Brit army, RUC, etc. weren't murdered, they were killed. Their job was to enforce British rule in Ireland, and for doing so they and their families paid the price. I never gloat over anyone's death and I'd obviously symathise with their families, but the fact of the matter remains, they were killed for doing what they did, and most instances wouldn't have hesitated to kill Irish soldiers if the tables were turned (which they often were, see the Republican Roll of Honour)

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Originally posted by mixinmusic It is also unaccecptable that Sinn Fein should be allowed to sit in government with a private army ready and waiting.

Yet it's fine for the DUP, members of which founded Ulster Resistance, an organisation that imported arms from S. Africa which are now in the hands of loyalist bigots (I justify calling them that in that they advocate the targeting and killing of innocent people "any taig'll do") and are used frequently.
Or the UUP with their links to Vanguard, or PUP with links to UVF. Or most obviously the biggest terror organisation in the country, the army of the British government (none of which have decomissioned a single bullet). But I'll agree with you. I don't think Provisional Sinn Féin or any Irish person should be administering rule on behalf of the British, all it is is an attempt by the British government to make their rule here acceptable by given Irish nationalists a mini-role (a token gesture and an attempt to get rid of Irish Republicanism)

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Originally posted by mixinmusic And this fiar and impartial Ireland would extend the discrimination against the Protestant people to all aspects of employment and not just the police service? How would you rectify this unemployment situation? Tax and spend??

The current inequalities I speak of are derived from past investment (or lack of it) in nationalist areas of the six counties. As for the police force, to me the religious make-up of it is irrelevent (as is the background of the people in the board, i.e. nationalist/unionist). The RIC was 80% Catholic, its job was the same as the RUC when it was 93% Protestant and it's the same job of the new PSNI, enforce Brit rule. 50% Catholic, 50% Protestant, 100% British.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Of course its your right but you have to look at the clear economic benefits that the UK gives N.Ireland. It finances a £3bn black hole defecit.. something the Republic would be unable to do with a population only double that in the North.

Irish people should happily be bribed into submission?

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Firstly the direct murder of the Catholic population by the PIRA within the last 30 years and continuing today in times of European human rights development is without a doubt an attrocity and a clearly preventable one, do you deny that?

Do you really want to keep flogging this atrocities thing. The religion of an innocent person killed in the north doesn't matter. Innocent people of whatever religion should never have been killed. And you'll see very few incidents of sectarianism (by that I mean targetting and killing of protestant civilians) by Republicans, with the exception of things like what happened at Kings Mills

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Originally posted by mixinmusic We look back over a centuary ago when the famine occured and take a look at the reasons. It was the economic system employed.

The impact of the failure of one crop was drastically hightened because of British rule and conditions brought with it (the land tenure system for example). If there was no British rule there would have been no Irish disaster.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Before the English even arrived in Ireland, it was controlled by local kings and was not in Irish hands then!

So it's perfectly acceptable to replace one tyrant with another? And the kings (Gaelic chiefs) were Irish.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic If Ireland was allowed to develop into a modern state like Scotland and Wales without continued republican interference and rebellion it would have developed just fine.

The Irish people were denied their right to independence, so of course they interfered with the administration of a foreign power. And rightly so. Imperialism is wrong and to oppose it is right.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic That misses the point. The majority of the people of Ireland who consider themselves Irish are not governed by the UK but political autonomy has been granted to the majority of those who consider themselves British. Ireland was never a united political unit so this so called "gerrymandering" is not the case. If anything gerrymandering has occured to allow those people of the Republic to govern themselves.

The Republic was proclaimed in 1916 and given a democratic mandate by the people in 1918 when they elected republican representatives to bring the Republic into existance. The partitioning of Ireland in 1921 flew in the face of the wishes of the majority of Irish people to facilitate a minority.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic No. Ireland has never been a single political unit and that unionist veto is just as relevant as the 20 odd percent of Isreal who consider themselves Palistianians and want a seperate state, which you agree with.

In both instances a sectarian state was set up and large number of people of a certain ethnicity, religion, etc. settled in the state in order to create a substantial enough number of that particular people in an attempt to justify the existence of the state.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The UK and Ireland may in this European election vote for a majority of candidates that would advocate pulling out of the EU. There is no doubt that this will be the case with N. Ireland yet in no way is that going to happen. Are our democratic wishes being denied or is there more to it than that?

They wouldn't advocate pulling out of the EU. They're critical of some aspects of Europe, but to my knowledge non of the northern candidates have said they wish to see Ireland or Britain out of EU. Opposition to entering the EEC in the beginning was an issue, but leaving the EU, from what I can see anyway, isn’t.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The people this "imperial" rule governs are not Irish people nor do the majority consider themselves Irish.

In the foreseeable future the majority of northerners will be nationalist. But in places like county Antrim, north Down, north Armagh there would always be a unionist majority. Should the country be re-partitioned? To answer yes would contradict your belief that the majority in the 6 cos should decide their own future, to answer no would indicate your subscription to my type of views, i.e. an electoral area should choose as a unit

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Originally posted by mixinmusic I dont deny that for one second and I never have! What I am pointing out is that your claim that republicanism is not secterian is bullshit as the most republican of places also have the most secterian people in that area

A Republic isn’t just an Ireland without British interference, it’s about the creation of a society of equals. Therefore republicanism is about equality, sectarianism is the opposite of equality (in that it’s about division along religious lines and drawing inequality from those lines). A brit free Ireland in which any group are discriminated against on religious grounds isn’t a Republic (as set out in the proclamation and adhered to be Republicans) irrespective of what it’s called. Stalinist Russia, in the opinion of Communists today, was a Communist state, despite it being labelled one.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic And you are telling me that the IRA never targeted and murdered innocent Protestants simply because they were Protestant. This is total bullshit and you know it.

It has happened, but very rarely. One notorious incident was when 10 Protestant men were murdered in Armagh. It was claimed by a group calling themselves the South Armagh something or other, but it's widely accepted that IRA members carried out the killings (the reason for it was nationalists were being killed indiscriminately in the north Armagh area at the time, and it was a message to those involved in those killings that IRA members could be as brutal, and that further killings of nationalists would result in similar style retribution. It worked, the killings of nationalists went down in the area. That's not to say I condone the actions of those involved in killing the 10 men). There was that incident, along with a very small number of others in which Protestants were targeted simply for being Protestants. You said yourself more nationalists were killed by IRA than unionists. Maybe they were also targeting the very people they were supposed to be protecting? right.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The falls road is a republican heartland so are you telling me that the people in that pub would just ignore this person... bullshit he would have the fuck beat of him for being a protestant. Does this mean that these people are not republican.. more bullshit.

No, they wouldn't ignore him because they'd be offended by what he's saying (would a Jew be offended if a Christian came in to a Jewish bar and started shouting Heil Hitler? Of course, and he'd probably get a kicking, not because he's a Christian, but because he's spouting hatred). And yes, anyone who attacks a Protestant for no reason whatsoever other than he's a Protestant is not a Republican, he's sectarian. Anti-Protestant sentiment isn't welcome in the republican movement. I'm telling you that as someone who knows. I'm not going to say there aren't sectarian people who purport to be republicans, what I'm saying is they are NOT republican.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Who the fuck cares you know dam well as I do that the singing of the UK national anthem is a sign of Protestantism or unionism and the singing of soilders song is a sign of Catholisism or Republicanism.

Protestantism and Unionism are not the same thing. One is a religious following, the other a political ideology. As is Catholicism and Republicanism respectively. It's attitudes like yours that add fuel to the fire of people who claim the conflict in the north in nothing but sectarian and help brand all Catholics as Republicans, all Protestants as Unionists and all Republicans and Unionists as sectarian.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Aye I heard the local Free Presbyterian church was looking for PIRA volunteers, fuck off and dont take that tiny minorty way out of proportions. Lets look at the reality today, if there was no difference in religion in this coutry, say everyone was Protestant, there would be no conflict at all.

The founders of Irish Republicanism were overwhelmingly Protestant and Dissenter. When they rose in Antrim and Down they didn't attack fellow Protestants but rose up against British rule. So even if everyone was Protestant there still would have been a desire to see the establishment of a republic. As did happen in Antrim and Down. Very few Catholics played a part.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Aye funny you should mention that, I seen the UWC flying the tricolour and shouting fuck the queen that day...

Stormont fell in 1972. The six counties were made ungovernable and as a result the Unionist regime in the north collapsed. What you're referring to is the Ulster Workers Council strike in 1974, when loyalists opposed to nationalists having a say in the affairs of the north brought an end to the Sunningdale Agreement.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic And it just so happens this clearly illustrates you dont seam to give a fuck about any human life.

Someone else already answered this better than me, a man from Belfast called Billy McKee, he's former comander, "I felt the same about us killing their men as they felt about killing ours. Quite frankly I shed no tears". Which is true, when a Brit kills an IRA man he's a hero, when an IRA man kills a Brit he's a murdering terrorist. They obviously have no remorse killing republicans, why should republicans care about them. I do give a fuck about human life, but I don’t give a fuck about the life of anyone who’d kill a republican, or worse, intentionally kill a civilian.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Are these the same Irish soilders who planted a bomb at enniskillen, on the Shankill and in the heart of London all which resulted in murder death and destruction? Are these soilders suppored by the Irish government?

The intentional killing of civilians is inexcusable. Civilians were killed in all three you’ve mentioned, whether or not the killings were intentional is debateable. Recent revelations about Enniskillen indicate that the bomb used was remote controlled, and that it exploded prematurely due to cross signalling in the airwaves (with some other device completely unrelated). Shankill was an attempt to kill loyalist leaders meeting in the building that was destroyed (an IRA man didn’t intentionally walk into a shop and blow himself and everyone else in the shop up). The aim of bombing London was destruction of massive pieces of property, costing hundreds of millions in an attempt to make London an investment black spot (some companies withdrew from London costing the Brit government massive amounts of money). It’s called economic guerrilla warfare. You’re well aware that the intentional murder of civilians is both immoral and self defeating for the organisation carrying the murders out.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Aye and the IRA and all their comrades would never advocate such brutal secterian murders. This is a fucking joke mate you point the finger of blame constantly on the Loyalists and the British government. The IRA are a bunch of murdering bastards and you cant seam to comprehend that because it was for some "nobel" cause. This type of attitude makes me sick and it makes me pitty the likes of you. How shocking is it also that members of the IRA and their friends claim to have a Christian religion..

So it's perfectly okay for the British army (the majority of whom are Christian) to come here and kill Irish people, but it's murder when Irish people fight back. Or is their (BA) cause so noble that it's okay?

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The army of this country who have been continually decomissioning their posts watching over the theives and murders living in S. Armagh since the signing of the Belfast agreement.

They're not the army of this country for a start, and which thieves in South Armagh are you refering to, the ones who stole land and set up in the middle of the GAA pitch in Crosmaglen to build a base?

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Now you are making yourself clear that you are more extreme than even Sinn Fein, I take it you are a keen supporter of the Omagh bomb. Oh how that achieved a fantastic victory for your cause, those 2 unborn children were going to join the police force didnt you know! Your attitude towards other human beings is disgusting.

I’m not a supporter of PSF. However that’s not to say I completely disagree with everything they stand for. I know that locally (in my locality anyway) the PSF representatives are the most competent in the community in dealing with real issues, etc. I do however recognise that the Belfast Agreement, which they’re behind, isn’t working, has never worked and can never work. You can’t sell an agreement to one group of people as a stepping stone to a united Ireland, to another group of people as something that strengthens the union, have the respective sides vote for it based on those contradicting merits, then expect it to work. I believe that there has to be complete clarity in a settlement, and the Éire Nua proposals I pointed you towards best do that. There’s compete clarity as to what the structure of a new Ireland would be. Unlike what we have now, there would be no false pretences.
As I’ve said above, I don’t support the killing of civilians (ludicrous to suggest I support the bombing of Omagh). As well as that, what happened further strengthens my point about killing civilians, i.e. self defeating.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic … your organisation

?? I don’t have an organisation.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Your cause murdered these people and you fight on hand on heart without no apology to anyone.

The PIRA have made an apology for all the non-combatants killed in the war.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Your country does nothing to help the thousands who die because you me and the rest of this nation lives in luxury while we all partake in the exploitation of these nations. Your country is no better than any other and stop trying to pretend it is.

Not only did Britain not do anything about the conditions of mid-nineteenth century Ireland (Re: The starvation) it created the conditions that provided for it to happen. The land tenure system meant that rents had to be paid by all tenants (who made up the vast majority of the population) and leases on lands were yearly or a period at the behest of a British landlord (therefore many people felt it a waste of time to invest in the land they farmed) and so farming remain stagnant with one crop being used to feed native families and other farm produce used as payment for rent and shipped abroad. When the food of the natives failed the rent still had to be paid, hence you have the so-called famine. The rent was then collected at gunpoint by the crown forces as people starved. To equate obvious forced starvation to modern day Ireland’s lack of intervention in the developing world today is obscure. No Irish forces are in any country stealing the food of starving people. Though I’ll agree, not enough is being done by the west to prevent deaths in the developing world. But things like globalisation, world bank, IMF, etc. are the main culprits. To try to shift the blame to a small country like ours is ignorant.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic Centuaries ago thats what did happen and I'm glad that you refered to your kings as tyrants as it just illustrates how the arival of the British in your opinion didnt change the country.

It was more a case of replacing the student with the master. The arrival of the British did change the country. Prior to the arrival of the Protestant English/Scottish in the seventeenth century (the loyalists in Ireland before then were Catholic) there was no religious persecution. Following it there was, and following religious wars (culminating in the defeat of Catholic forces in 1691) the persecution extended into all aspects of life (cultural, social, political, education, etc.). Gaelic chiefs weren’t angels, but they weren’t evil bastards.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic The UK is not foreign all Irish people and British people are ethnically the same so what the fuck are you on about foreign..

Well if you’re going back to ethnicity they’re not. Celts were widespread throughout Ireland, Britain and a lot of Europe until the arrival of the Saxons who pushed westwards, and forced the Celtic people to the fringes (Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, etc.). I won’t disagree that since then a lot of intermingling has occurred between the peoples since and today they‘re all the one you might argue.. Just like there’s a great number of people in Ireland of British ancestry, there’s a lot of people in places like Newfoundland of Irish descent. In Newfoundland like in Ballymena, etc. the most settlers descendents have strong accents, etc of their former country and various strong ties. This seems to be your justification for British rule in the six counties (i.e. the people are of British descent). The same argument doesn’t really justify Irish rule across the ocean though does it?

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Originally posted by mixinmusic I have no problem with nationalism and I probably would be quite nationalistic myself if I did not find your type so unbelievably unbearable and secterian.

Well you can find me what you like, but I can tell you I’m far from sectarian. I make no apologies for holding the political beliefs I hold. But you’re either seeing them or trying to make them out to be something they are not, and trying to make me out to be something I’m not.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic it would be great to see Ireland in the future become perhaps part of a federal UK.

It would be shameful if some generation in the future turned their noses up at the sacrifice made by so many in the past for them.

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Originally posted by mixinmusic I hope one day you find the true word of god and stop supporting in todays standard an unjust and uncalled for secterian struggle that does nothing but tear these peoples and these nations apart. Get on with your life and worry about the bigger picture ie things that threaten us all as human beings. Leave this petit conflict behind.

It is not a sectarian struggle and I am not a sectarian person (sectarianism does of course exist and it‘s a disgusting thing). Opponents of republicans brand them sectarian in an attempt to demonise republicans and belittle what republicans stand for. Hopefully you don’t see me as screwed up, like you’ve said. I stand by what I believe, just as you stand by what you believe.

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