quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono (give me the name of a "perfect" president).

George Washington



And not even he was perfect most likely...but he was against the formation of political parties which makes him leaps and bounds above any other president in my mind.

As to the whole good/bad etc comments, Reagan was neither the saint that the Republican party now puts him up as, nor was he the demon that some people have expressed. He was a normal human being with both faults and strengths. He did things that were harmful, and things that were helpful. One thing he did do which the people who are bashing him now, less than a day after his death, have not. He treated people he did not agree with on issues with civility.

MrS

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-"Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.

mrsquirrel, everyone is a normal human being.

Reagan was a normal human being, at the helm of the most powerful nation in the world.

lets just forgive him. he's a normal human being.

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You guys are funny. You act like hes supposed to be a robot and be perfect. Of course he has faults like all of us. We aren't brainwashed we are honoring one of the leaders of our country who has died. Sorry if you can't understand that.

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Originally posted by BadBadNeil You guys are funny. You act like hes supposed to be a robot and be perfect. Of course he has faults like all of us. We aren't brainwashed we are honoring one of the leaders of our country who has died. Sorry if you can't understand that.

reaganomics is not a human flaw, it's just stupidity. Sure, no one is perfect we all know that, but making choices like following trickle-down economy constitutes stupidity in my mind.

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It has to start somewhere,
It has to start sometime,
What better place then here?
What better time than now?
--Rage Against the Machine

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Ronald Reagan, 1911-2004 Goodbye and Good Riddance By PHIL GASPER Ronald Reagan has finally died at age 93. Predictably, politicians from both major parties have issued gushing tributes to this venal and vicious man, who was happy to slash workers' wages, see families thrown onto the street, support sadistic death squads and bomb other countries, if this was in the interests of the American ruling class. Reagan refused to mention AIDS publicly for six years, under-funded federal programs dealing with the disease and, according to his authorized biography, said, "Maybe the Lord brought down this plague," because "illicit sex is against the Ten Commandments." C. Everett Koop, Reagan's surgeon general, later revealed, "because transmission of AIDS was understood primarily in the homosexual population and in those who abused intravenous drugs, the advisors to the president took the stand, they are only getting what they justly deserve."

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdo...00312030913.asp

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Reagan's economic policies were a disaster for working-class Americans. Reagan presided over the worst recession since the 1930s, and economic growth in the 1980s was lower than in the 1970s, despite the stimulus of military Keynesian policies, which created massive federal budget deficits and tripled the federal debt. By the end of the decade, real wages were down and the poverty rate had increased by 20 percent.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/politics/politics3.htm

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Reagan was many things, but "gifted" was not one of them. "Poor dear," remarked British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, his closest international ally, "there's nothing between his ears." As for a "moral man," Reagan's morality included union busting--beginning with his dismissal of striking air traffic controllers in 1981--an unprecedented war on the poor, opposition to civil rights and support for apartheid South Africa. The "moral" Reagan trained and supported terrorists, including the Nicaraguan contras ("the moral equal of our Founding Fathers") who killed over 30,000 people, and Islamic radicals in Afghanistan who later formed the al-Qaeda network.

There's some nice, objective arguements. Argumentum ad hominem anyone?

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Reagan was also a liar. In November 1986, he publicly denied that his administration had been illegally selling arms to Iran and using the proceeds to fund the contras. One week later he was forced to retract this statement, but denied that the sale was part of a deal to free U.S. hostages. The following year, Reagan admitted that there had been an arms-for-hostages deal, but denied he knew anything about it.

Well, I think that paragraph sums it up. Reagan said he didn't know about it, and he stuck to it. North said he "thought" Reagan knew, but there was no evidence that he in fact did. If you can find some clear, hard proof to the opposite, please let me know.

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In 1992, that too proved to be a lie when former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger was compelled to release notes from a January 1986 meeting revealing, "President decided to go with Israeli-Iranian offer to release our 5 hostages in return for sale of 4,000 TOWs [U.S. missiles] to Iran by Israel."

Bleh...read the Tower Commission report, it'll sum it up better than I can.

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The man whose administration spearheaded class warfare on behalf of the rich, dragged American politics to the right, and rebuilt US imperialism after the Vietnam debacle, is dead. Good riddance.

Bitter anyone?

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Originally posted by DR86 reaganomics is not a human flaw, it's just stupidity. Sure, no one is perfect we all know that, but making choices like following trickle-down economy constitutes stupidity in my mind.

It's funny. There are many who subscribe to the belief that Reagan's economic policies were the roots of one of the best secular/cyclical economic expansions/bull economies since WWII (1988-2000). Policies don't take effect overnight, it takes time to see the long-term ramifications of any changes in policy. Change doesn't happen overnight.

Well, you must accept that he was a fundie who did support the apartheid, talibans, Nicaraguan terrorists, and who was involved in the Iran-contra affair. You can't honestly believe he didn't know about those things. That's either lying or being exceptionally stupid, of which I'm inclined to believe the former.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, you must accept that he was a fundie who did support the apartheid, talibans, Nicaraguan terrorists, and who was involved in the Iran-contra affair. You can't honestly believe he didn't know about those things. That's either lying or being exceptionally stupid, of which I'm inclined to believe the former.

How many board posters actually lived through the Reagan presidency vs. how many are speaking on it from their history books? Nice letter written by Gorbachev in the Times today.

NY Times Piece

quote:

A President Who Listened By MIKHAIL GORBACHEV OSCOW — I have just sent to Nancy Reagan a letter of condolence for the passing of Ronald Reagan. The 40th president of the United States was an extraordinary man who in his long life saw moments of triumph, who had his ups and downs and experienced the happiness of true love. It so happened that his second term as president coincided with the emergence of a new Soviet leadership — a coincidence that may seem accidental but that was in effect a prologue to momentous events in world history. Ronald Reagan's first term as president had been dedicated to restoring America's self-confidence. He appealed to the traditions and optimism of the people, to the American dream, and he regarded as his main task strengthening the economy and the military might of the United States. This was accompanied by confrontational rhetoric toward the Soviet Union, and more than rhetoric — by a number of actions that caused concern both in our country and among many people throughout the world. It seemed that the most important thing about Reagan was his anti-Communism and his reputation as a hawk who saw the Soviet Union as an "evil empire." Yet his second term as president emphasized a different set of goals. I think he understood that it is the peacemakers, above all, who earn a place in history. This was consistent with his convictions based on experience, intuition and love of life. In this he was supported by Nancy — his wife and friend, whose role will, I am sure, be duly appreciated. At our first meeting in Geneva in 1985 I represented a new, changing Soviet Union. Of course, the new Soviet leadership could have continued in the old ways. But we chose a different path, because we saw the critical problems of our country and the urgent need to step back from the edge of the abyss to which the nuclear arms race was pushing mankind. The dialogue that President Reagan and I started was difficult. To reach agreement, particularly on arms control and security, we had to overcome mistrust and the barriers of numerous problems and prejudices. I don't know whether we would have been able to agree and to insist on the implementation of our agreements with a different person at the helm of American government. True, Reagan was a man of the right. But, while adhering to his convictions, with which one could agree or disagree, he was not dogmatic; he was looking for negotiations and cooperation. And this was the most important thing to me: he had the trust of the American people. In the final outcome, our insistence on dialogue proved fully justified. At a White House ceremony in 1987, we signed the intermediate-range nuclear forces treaty, which launched the process of real arms reduction. And, even though we saw the road to a world free of nuclear weapons differently, the very fact of setting this goal in 1986 in Reykjavik helped to break the momentum of the arms race. While addressing these vital tasks, we changed the nature of relations between our two countries, moving step by step to build trust and to test it by concrete deeds. And in the process, we — and our views — were changing too. I believe it was not an accident that during his visit to Moscow in the summer of 1988 President Reagan said, in reply to a reporter's question, that he did not regard the perestroika-era Soviet Union as an evil empire. I think that the main lesson of those years is the need for dialogue, which must not be broken off whatever the challenges and complications we have to face. Meeting with Ronald Reagan in subsequent years I saw that this was how he understood our legacy to the new generation of political leaders. The personal rapport that emerged between us over the years helped me to appreciate Ronald Reagan's human qualities. A true leader, a man of his word and an optimist, he traveled the journey of his life with dignity and faced courageously the cruel disease that darkened his final years. He has earned a place in history and in people's hearts. Mikhail Gorbachev is the former president of the Soviet Union. This article was translated by Pavel Palazhchenko from the Russian.

As I said before, you can agree or disagree with his policies and beliefs; it's much easier to do so in hindsight than at that present time, IMO. But I think Reagan honestly believed in everything he was doing was the correct choice. We could discuss Reaganomics and his foreign policies to live long day, but I just kinda have a soft spot for the guy and his wife, and I just think that this thread is not the appropriate place for it.

Like it or not, he is an American icon, and it was a sad day when he passed. My heart and thoughts go out to his strong-willed, courageous wife and family.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 As I said before, you can agree or disagree with his policies and beliefs; it's much easier to do so in hindsight than at that present time, IMO. But I think Reagan honestly believed in everything he was doing was the correct choice. We could discuss Reaganomics and his foreign policies to live long day, but I just kinda have a soft spot for the guy and his wife, and I just think that this thread is not the appropriate place for it. Like it or not, he is an American icon, and it was a sad day when he passed. My heart and thoughts go out to his strong-willed, courageous wife and family.

well said.

and thanks for posting the Gorbachev article shakka

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

Just so everyone knows, some of the ceremony is on right now. His coffin arrived at his Presidential library about 10 minutes ago, and they're placing him in the entryway for the service. The public can begin coming in to show their respects later in the day.

It's on all of the major news networks (CNN, FOX, etc.), C-span, and the national networks (CBS, NBC, etc.)

The journey to the library was pretty amazing. It's probably 40 miles on the freeway from Santa Monica, and every overpass was covered with people, fire trucks, and American flags.

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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka How many board posters actually lived through the Reagan presidency vs. how many are speaking on it from their history books? Nice letter written by Gorbachev in the Times today.

Well, although I was pretty young at the time, I do remember the latter part of his presidency. I guess that I must admit he was pretty good in foreign policy since he managed to convince the leadership of a country that basically controled the other half of the world to voluntarily fall apart. Or maybe it was because Gorbachov was an idiot who managed to degrade himself from a leader of the second strongest country in the world to a person who now records pizza commercials. That's still debatable.

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