I like that

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Originally posted by tathi A worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?" The survey was a huge failure... - In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant. - In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant. - In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant. - In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant. - In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant. - In South America they didn't know what "please" meant. - And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant

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Originally posted by imokruok Long term social programs are at the greatest risk in Europe - in fact, at far higher risk than the US or any other advanced nations. You people need to have more freaking children, because your piss-poor birthrates are bankrupting the system. Even worse, most continental governments are welcoming immigrants with open arms in order to remedy the situation. The only problem is that most of them are having one hell of a time assimilating.

Unfortunately, I agree with you on this one. Raising children simply takes a lot of time, and it's unfortunate that the governments don't really realize that. That's one of the problems of democracy. Demographic issues are really a long-term investment, much longer than any government lifetime. It takes 20 year for a child to reach adulthood, yet it takes 4-5 years until the government expires. So when each government is forced to choose between selfish interests (not giving money for child subsidies, investing into economy and making a short-term growth at the cost of long-term population benefits) or altruistic ones (giving subsidies so that the country will be better off in 20 years, but reducing paychecks of the population and losing votes), most of them will choose the former.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by Yoepus I've met a lot of people in America. Its still curious I haven't met a gay-hater yet. So since American's don't hate gays, I have no clue what you are talking about.

"I don't hate black people, but they shoudln't have the same rights as whites"

i have seen a lot of anti gay (american) people on this forum alone...

AS many before me have pointed out, GDP is far from everything. In almost all measurements when they take into account different aspects, like quality of life, happiness etc, Europe comes far better than America. Also we got better health care for everyone, less poverty, less gun crimes etc

The European economy is still increasing, as long as it does i don't see any problems with it. We are happier and still we get more money every year. We don't have to rely on investments from foreigner countries in the same way as the US have to either.

As for too little kids being born, yes that is a problem. But i certianly don't think it has something to do with the welfare kind of government. Sweden (who is one of the most left countries in europe) for example has a positive growth. On the other hand "low tax" countries such as italy and spain has A LOT more problems with population growth. I think the problem more lies in the women's place in society there, that if they born a children they have to sacrifice their carrier to raise the child.

St. Andrew don't you believe that you are engaging in a lot of broad based generalizations by assuming that Europeans have it far better in quality of life, happiness, etc than America. Based on what might I ask. If Europe is a united entity as you so strongly believe and is reflected as a unit of 25 then how can you make such a claim, what about the problems of Eastern Europe is that not part of Europe. What basis do you use as comparison for your assertion, have you been to America and lived.

For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan St. Andrew don't you believe that you are engaging in a lot of broad based generalizations by assuming that Europeans have it far better in quality of life, happiness, etc than America. Based on what might I ask. If Europe is a united entity as you so strongly believe and is reflected as a unit of 25 then how can you make such a claim, what about the problems of Eastern Europe is that not part of Europe. What basis do you use as comparison for your assertion, have you been to America and lived. For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history

true i cannot generalize and i cannot say how the american/european people are having their lives (no one can if they haven't experienced every single role of every single region), i can just refer to the different investigations that has been done. and they (as i wrote) almost always point out that (average) europeans are happier than (average) americans. but i agree that it may be very hard to measure that kinds of things too.

As for eastern europe, some of the countries there have a higher quality of life than the average American.

Of course money does matter a lot, someone who says it doesn't lies, but it's certainly not first priority in life.

GDP per captia is meaningless unless you have a income distribution to support this stats.

For instance i could have 1 country earning 2 million dollars per year and this money is divided equally amoung the 1,000 inhabitants.
2,000 per person

I could also have another country earning 2 million a year and 100 people get 1 million and the other 900 get the other 1 million

222 per person.

This is in fact a similar situation to that of the US where i believe it was 10 percent of the country owns 50 percent of the wealth.

Although the GDP per capita would make it appear that average person in the US is wealther then in europe one cannot tell without the other support indicators.

Also one needs to take into consideration
1) cost of transport
2) cost of accomdation
3) cost of food
4) health care coverage
5) education
6) social programmes.

If someone lived in nation where they maybe have an extra 1,000 per year in income due to lower taxes but they also have to pay 100 percent of thier education which one is better off.

Not to down play the US's achievements but dont break your arm patting your self on the back just yet.
there is alot more that one needs to see before one can make accurate statements about which one is better.

Also you would then have to establish a value for certain aspects of life Ie is education more valuable then health care or transport more valuable then food, defence more important then social programms free media vs media concentration.


good article but..... it is misleading at best

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan For example, how terrific is the quality of life of many of the Muslims that live in the suburbs of Marseille or Paris in France by the way suburbs are not a good thing in Europe my fellow Americans. Its huge highrise complexes that house immigrant families, kind of like the project housings in America. Maybe the quality of life is greater in Scandanavia but once again its a much smaller population, high employment and pretty much an homogenous culture. See how great it would be if proportionally you had to absorb the number of migrants that America has had over its history

I hardly believe that the life of an average muslim in the suburb of Paris is any worse than the life of an average black guy in Bronx. While European suburbs are not really the nicest place to live, I think they're still better than the US ghettoes.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I hardly believe that the life of an average muslim in the suburb of Paris is any worse than the life of an average black guy in Bronx. While European suburbs are not really the nicest place to live, I think they're still better than the US ghettoes.

and have you ever been in a U.S. ghetto? because I used to live in one.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I hardly believe that the life of an average muslim in the suburb of Paris is any worse than the life of an average black guy in Bronx. While European suburbs are not really the nicest place to live, I think they're still better than the US ghettoes.

Might I ask you have you ever lived in either one of them because like Phalpax I as well lived in a "ghetto" in NYC. I doubt that you have lived in either a NYC ghetto or a immigrant community in Europe to form such a statement that one is better than another. Notice I did not ever make mention in my commentary that one was better than the other unlike yourself, I instead drew upon the immigrant highrises in Europe as a response to St_Andrew's statements of quality of life. I wanted to demonstrate that quality of life is a very subjective point that unless you are a part of that setting makes commenting on it less than knowledgable on an individuals part. Even within these "ghettos" there are varying degrees of social problems, nothing is blanket for the "average black guy" As an average black guy from Brooklyn, NY I would like to think I can comment on this especially. As a matter of fact the majority of blacks who are very poor actually live in the Southern states of the U.S.

P.S. my assertion was never that the suburbs of Paris or Amsterdam that have a lot of immigrant communities from Middle Eastern countries, Africa and Suriname in the case of Holland was worse than those in America, you interpreted that on your own. Reread my statement and you will see my point. When St_Andrew made his post I doubt he had the concept of an average black guy or immigrant in mind on the quality of life in America or those of the average immigrant in Europe and that is my point of why it is subjective to generalise as he did.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

all the remarks of Swilly are right on point.

For those who have access there is an interesting article in this weeks Economist on this very point. In essence, the article concludes that boosterism of how Superior the USA is to Europe are largely illusory. In fact the Europeans on several very important economic indicators excel the USA. Lower debt, greater income equality etc.

God, how much I despise the mindless statements the USA is a free market paradise. Thats an outright lie. In fact the ECB has far greater monetarist credentials than the Federal Reserve. The governments in the European Union spend money on welfare, the USA government spends money on prisons for the 2 million people in jail. Both are government wealth transfers, yet social welfare gets right wing scorn and jails get right wing praise. The West Europeans have universal health care, the USA has a grossly inefficient and wasteful health system etc etc.

Heres a bit of hosest truth, NO CORPORATION WANTS FREE MARKETS IF THEY CAN HELP IT. The corporations want free markets for the sources of their materials and the labour that makes their products to force the cost of manufacture down but they want monopolies and subsidies when they sell them. So what really happens is only the weak get the wonders of the free market, the corporations get subsidies, tax cuts, protectionism and big fat government contracts that arent up to competitive bidding.

The USA government is a wealth transfer system from the taxpayers to the big corporations and yet I don't think I have ever heard any right wingers ever complain or argue about the protectionism that is extended to the big corporations. This is what has happened to the USA:

State capture

Is defined as "the actions of individuals, groups, or firms both in the public and private sectors to influence the formation of laws, regulations, decrees, and other government policies to their own advantage as a result of the illicit and non-transparent provision of private benefits to public officials."

Witness the fact the Enron helped draft US energy policy and was instrumental in deregulating Californias energy market in order to rob californian energy consumers. All in the name of free enterprise.

And yet people thank the wonderful corporate system. Guys like Adam Smith knew that a capitalist system only works if there is a strong government to enforce the law, which in turn is accountable to the people. If people get the chance to steal they do.

And yet President Bush and his lads will probably win, despite the countless lies and scandals.

'When you have a society of sheep you should expect a government of wolves.'