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Seventil
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: A random vineyard, France
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.


Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."



http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr109.html

Most of the philosphical ones can be answered at the site as well.

Opus, give me a bit to respond to you, kind of busy at work at the moment. I'll get to it before I leave tonight.

Old Post Jul-26-2004 20:00  France
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by Seventil
http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr109.html

Most of the philosphical ones can be answered at the site as well.

Opus, give me a bit to respond to you, kind of busy at work at the moment. I'll get to it before I leave tonight.


First intelligent responses I've seen against contradiction arguments. Anyway I'm devoting a block of my night to this thread! Sigh ... the one thing I liked about my old job is that I could post at work and then drink at night ... looks like I'll have to make sacrifices.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Jul-26-2004 20:25  United States
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I love these arguments that resort to "you were never there".

You were never there to witness the Holocaust either. Did 6 million Jews die, according to your eyewitness testimony, or not?

You seem to like written history as a text of basing your notions. You do realize that the Biblical Genesis version is not unique, and that there is an older religion that sounds so gosh darn eerily familiar to the Biblical Genesis version, don't you?


no, but there were humans there to record what happened. in the theory of evolution, there were no humans there to record such events, so how do u know what happened?? genesis is the written history of the beginning of this world, which humans were there from the very beginning.


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Old Post Jul-26-2004 21:08  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by Seventil
http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr109.html

Most of the philosphical ones can be answered at the site as well.

Opus, give me a bit to respond to you, kind of busy at work at the moment. I'll get to it before I leave tonight.


No problem. I would like to address the geneologies question, however.

Before getting to the article you linked to, there's a coupla problems with the lineage that's depicted in Matthew. For example:

1:9
And Ozias begat Joatham

-1 Chr.3:11-12 lists three generations between Osiah and Jotham (Joash, Amaziah, and Azariah), but Matthew omits all three. Why?

1:12
And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel

-1:12 God prophesied in Jeremieah (22:28-30) that Jeconiah would be childless, but this verse says Jeconiah's son was Salathiel. Why the discrepency?


Furthermore, the Matthew lineage, purported to be from Joseph, does not line up very well with the Judaist lineage as depicted in 1Chronicles 3.

As for the rest of the argument involving Matthew lineage being Joseph vs. Luke's lineage being Mary's, here's a good answer from a Jewish website:

http://www.torahatlanta.com/article...%20with%20Jesus'%20Lineage.htm

We also have some difficulties with some Old Testament prophesies, for example - if the genealogy in Matthew is taken seriously, then Jesus has as an ancestor Jeconiah (Matthew 1:12), of whom the prophet Jeremiah said, "Write this man down as childless, a man who will not prosper in his days, for no man of his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or ruling again in Judah." (Jeremiah 22:30) The genealogy in Luke suffers from the same problem, since it includes Shealtiel and Zerubbabel, both of whom were descendents of Jeconiah.

But seriously, looking at the Bible in the layman's sense, Luke 3:23 states quite clearly "He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,...etc." and Matthew 1:16 concludes "Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary the mother of Jesus." Mary's geneology is thus nowhere represented here--all we have is allowance for a virgin birth (whereas Luke allows this with the "so it was thought" qualification). We are given the father of Jesus, and the father of Joseph, and so on, all the way up, in both cases. Thus, the two books contradict each other, plain and simple, by one declaring that Joseph's father was Jacob, and the other that Joseph's father was Heli.

I think the attempt to link Jesus to the King lineage was pretty obvious, but unfortunately it was done in a rather sloppy manner.


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jul-26-2004 21:53  United States
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Seventil
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: A random vineyard, France
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Your incredulity absolutely astounds me. What on earth is an assumption with the evidence we have on what the earth was like 200 years ago? Do we not at least have documentation of it? What about 2000 years ago? You have problems with these supposed "assumptions" on 2000 yr. old history, yet you seem to have little difficulty in believing a man by the name of Jesus seemingly performed miracles and died as a martyr for his faith around that same time? If you have difficulty believing in one but not the other, how do you reconcile the two?

But to go further back into history, say 10,000 yrs. or so, you seem to think that it is pure assumption that we had an ice age? Or how about 65 million yrs. ago - is this pure assumption that dinosaurs were roaming about? Are these the assumptions you are referring to? If so, let's be specific, because every question you've had thus far has been answered, and I certainly want to make sure I and others here can do our best to answer any further questions.

Are you simply stating that because no one was there, we cannot classify certain historical events as having occurred? By that logic, I believe it's safe to say that you are not alive, because you were certainly not conscious or even aware of your mother's birth, were you? How do you know that your great-grandfather was alive? What constitutes knowing historical events occur to you? (I'll give you a hint, it has to do with forensics and basic logic).


I see your point of reasoning. Let me clarify mine.

Dinosaurs. I don't "assume" that dinosaurs were roaming this planet at one time. You don't either. I assume that they were roaming around mainly in the pre-flood earth (4004-2400 BC approx) - you assume they were roaming around from 250 Million BC to 65 Million BC (approximations).

Let me ask you this: Do any of your testing methods - any of them - not rely on assumptions?

Let's say you use radio-active isotope dating to date the age of a rock, and come up with 2 Billion years. You have "assumed": The characteristics of said isotope have been the same for 2 billion years, allowing for accurate testing. You have no way of ever proving this, unless a time machine is invented.

It's like taking one picture of you during your lifetime - say, with your family and child at the dinner table in your mid 30's. Any outside viewer would like at this and think:

1. You are a middle aged adult with a wife and children.
2. You are eating dinner with them.
3. You are having steak, potatoes and kool-aid for dinner.

I assume this all. It seems probable, does it not?

When the actual truth is:

1. You are a middle aged adult with a wife and children.
2. You are eating dinner with your mistress and your estranged child.
3. You are having steak, potatoes and kool-aid for dinner.

I don't know if that analogy really worked.

My point is you can't take a snapshot of the world - like we are doing now - and assume it's been the same forever. That's ignorant and naive.

Now I see your point of view - and I know what the logic is -

Even if things were different way back, they wouldn't be so different as to merit a 250 million year difference. Dating methods can't be THAT far off - maybe 10-50%, but it would still rule creation out. Correct?

I agree with that statement. However, you assume they were not that different. I assume they were very different - one that could be explained by the creation of our world, a different world to live in for 1600 years, then a worldwide flood that completely reshaped the world's climate, geography - everything. There are so many unknowns in something like that happening (because we could never recreate it, or observe it) that it could explain ANY current scientific method being completely and utterly wrong.

Now, I'll give you that some of the "science" behind evolution is convincing - if you take my one rule out. You have to always, always remember that science makes a lot of assumptions (especially in the "dating" category") - that the universe and our little corner of it has always been the same.

quote:

The methodology that went into constructing the theory of evolution is the same methodology that went into constructing the above theories. All theories in science were created using methodological naturalism. Not once has light been shed on the our investigation of the natural world by first assuming supernatural causes. Can you name one scientific discovery that relies on someone believing in a supernatural diety?



I agree. All theories were created using methodological naturalism. And they did most of them brilliantly. Yet they failed to follow my only rule - and have drastically lost perspective of everything.

quote:

Evolution would not be a part of mainstream science if it wasn't supported by evidence. I reiterate, no faith (or what you call "assumptions") is needed here. The evidence is in the fossil record and in the DNA in your cells. Again, evolution is not assumption based, it is based on evidence. Please show me any part of the theory of evolution that is solely supported by assumptions and no evidence whatsoever. Just because you accept things on blind faith doesn't mean that science does the same thing. Again, observation is how science works, and this is no different for evolution than any other scientific theory listed above (and that list is certainly not exclusive, BTW).


You're putting quite a lot of faith in the fact you think everything has been the same, always. I'll just beat that into the ground. You are blindly believing that everything has always been the way it is, all laws are constant, and your beloved science is solid. It might be - I'm not ruling that out - but I don't believe it is.

So, fellow person of faith, I salute you for your crusade for your religion. You're a tough customer.

quote:

You must sincerely forgive me for not taking your Bible as a very strong biological account of events. I just read through Deuteronomy, and for some reason God told people that one could judge a virgin on her wedding night if she bleeds (i.e. her hymen breaks). This is an old wives tale, because the hymen can certainly break without sex, or it certainly may not break the first time during intercourse. But it gets worse - God allows man to get out of the sanctimony of marriage and kill an innocent woman because her hymen doesn't break. Putting that obvious ethical question of sanctity of marriage aside, why should I trust a Book that has obvious biological errors? Why would you ask me to consider that over a mountain of corroborating evidence from numerous scientific fields?


I respect your right to not take the Bible as a strong account of events. That's your free will.

As for the whole Dueteronomy thing - I haven't heard of that one, but I'm sure it's out there. I'll look it up.

quote:

BTW, why are you attempting to confuse morality issues with evolutionary theory? Whatever morality issues you have certainly has no place with evolution. Why are you mixing these two?


My only morality issue with evolutionary theory is that it's stated as fact when it's clearly just that, a theory. Are we (as a people) so high and mighty, so all-knowing in our scientific pursuits, so damn right about everything that we've learned in the last century? If we step off our high seats of self-proclaimed power and realize that we believe in a theory based on assumptions, we might realize that it was all just a fairy tale to begin with.

I'll give you a scientific fact - we don't know everything, and we don't know how everything was. That is empirical, falsifiable and logical.

That, Father Opus, is a fact. Creation and Evolution out the window, that single and solidifying fact makes both of our theories that of faith.

Old Post Jul-26-2004 22:01  France
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Seventil
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: A random vineyard, France

quote:
Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
no, but there were humans there to record what happened. in the theory of evolution, there were no humans there to record such events, so how do u know what happened?? genesis is the written history of the beginning of this world, which humans were there from the very beginning.


Actually humans didn't come in until God made them, after he had created the world. No human eyes saw the Creation - although Adam and Eve did witness God in the garden and all that, of course. Genesis was written by an various authors (Adam, Noah, etc) and edited by Moses.

Old Post Jul-26-2004 22:04  France
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
no, but there were humans there to record what happened. in the theory of evolution, there were no humans there to record such events, so how do u know what happened?? genesis is the written history of the beginning of this world, which humans were there from the very beginning.


Ahh, I see. So am I to understand that you do not believe in dinosaurs then?

Well, let me just take your logic a step further - you are therefore concluding that nothing occurred prior to recorded written history? How then, do we conclude certain events occurred prior to written history? If you tell me that there was nothing prior to written history, you must forgive me for laughing out loud. Simple geologic, geographic, and paleobiological observation and understanding undermines this ridiculous notion pretty easily.

But even so, you seem to be implying that the book of Genesis is the oldest history book, since it was written at the beginning of the world. Why then, is it so eerily familiar to the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish story, which is much older?:

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_...sh_creation.htm

http://www.crystalinks.com/babyloniancreation.html


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Jul-26-2004 22:07  United States
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Seventil
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: A random vineyard, France

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Ahh, I see. So am I to understand that you do not believe in dinosaurs then?

Well, let me just take your logic a step further - you are therefore concluding that nothing occurred prior to recorded written history? How then, do we conclude certain events occurred prior to written history? If you tell me that there was nothing prior to written history, you must forgive me for laughing out loud. Simple geologic, geographic, and paleobiological observation and understanding undermines this ridiculous notion pretty easily.

But even so, you seem to be implying that the book of Genesis is the oldest history book, since it was written at the beginning of the world. Why then, is it so eerily familiar to the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish story, which is much older?:

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_...sh_creation.htm

http://www.crystalinks.com/babyloniancreation.html


Ooo, I love the "EE" thing. I think it's cool, no matter who is right. The fact that tablets were found in the ruins of a library brings out the Indiana Jones adventurer part of me.

Anyway, here is what a "creation-biased" site has to say about it:

In some skeptical circles, it is still fashionable to make the claim that the creation account of Genesis was in some sense borrowed from the Babylonian creation account, Enuma Elish (hereafter EE; those who hold this view are hereafter "EE proponents"). I have used a turn of phrase suggesting that the argument isn't held in all skeptical circles -- the latest fad in this regard is to attribute most of the borrowing from Egyptian sources, as Greenberg does in 101 Myths of the Bible (though he posits some Babylonian influence on stories like the Flood and Cain and Abel). Still, you will now and then run into a skeptic still in the Dark Ages intellectually, and it is thus a good idea to run through some of the arguments. (My own perception is that we would expect some similiarities in EE and Genesis -- and in other creation accounts as well -- if they all derived from a common source.)

Some of the differences in the accounts are basic -- EE records "successive generations of gods and goddesses" who are subject to typical weaknesses such as hunger, thirst, and sex drive; Genesis records but one God, though He had company of unspecified nature (Gen. 1:26), with no such weaknesses. The EE is a creation account to some extent, but most of it is devoted to describing a battle between the god Marduk (the "creator" as such) and Tiamat the goddess (who ends up being the raw material of creation), and to other non-creation issues, so that after tally, only about a third of it is on the subject of creation. EE played a political and cultic role in the Babylonian religion and explained Marduk's rise to chief god of Babylon; Genesis does not mention Israel, Jerusalem, or the Temple, and served no cultic function [Sarna, Understanding Genesis, 9; I would suggest that this points to the Genesis account being more original]. But, let us move to detail. Our foundational source for this essay is Alexander Heidel's classic work, The Babylonian Genesis. (U. of Chicago Press, 1942) We will address relevant points in outline form, following the order of Genesis as required.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
All stories must start somewhere, and the ways in which Genesis differs from EE at the very beginning is quite significant. Genesis starts us "in the beginning", at a time-point which suggests nothing before. But EE and other Babylonian creation accounts start with words like, "on the day that" or "when" -- which do not specify a beginning. The Hebrew word here means "at the first" (Numbers 15:20 "Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering..."); the matching Hebrew word for the Babylonian record is not what is used. This feature "finds no paralells in the cosmogonies" of Babylon.

1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
EE also supposes a watery chaos in place, and this is where EE proponents had their biggest party. The word for "deep" here is tehowm, and EE proponents leapt upon the similarity of this word to the name of the Babylonia goddess Tiamat. In the EE, Tiamat was the water-goddess who was slain by Marduk and used to make the watery chaos. It was supposed that tehom was linguistically derived from Tiamat, thus proving borrowing.

Substantial differences, first of all, render this unlikely. Tiamat was only one of two water-deities involved in this story; the other was the water-god Apsu. Tiamat was salty water; Apsu was fresh water. Apsu, at any rate, has no parallel in Genesis at all, and the tehom is inanimate.

Of more import, the linguistic connection supposed by the critics could, if anything, only have gone in the opposite direction. The words are indeed from the same root (as are indeed, as Heidel points out, the German word for "blessed" (selig) and the English word "silly"!), but Heidel demonstrates at length that for tehowm to be derived from Tiamat is "grammatically impossible" based on the rules of Hebrew as we know them. The Hebrew tehowm has a masculine ending; Tiamat is feminine. A loan word from Babylonian to Hebrew would retain the feminine; we would not expect tehowm but tiama or teama. Hebrew would also not add the H unless it were found in the original word (i.e., it would have to have been Tihamat). Heidel's conclusion is that the two words probably go back to "a common Semitic form," rather than that one was derived from the other [100].

I can mention an observation of my own here. If Genesis was an effort to "clean up" the Babylonian myth for Hebrews, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to use a word with such a clear linguistic connection to the name of a Babylonian goddess. Genesis could simply have referred to the "waters" as it does later on.

It is also worth mentioning a special connection that was made by EE proponents who suggested that the EE represented a symbolic form of the rainy season and flood cycle and Babylon, and that this was proof of borrowing by the Hebrews, because they kept this form in spite of living in arid Judea. Heidel responds by noting that the EE proponents hadn't studied Babylonian climate very well -- the rainy season and the flood season there come at entirely different times of the year; if indeed there is a "rainy season" as the area gets only about 6 inches of precipitation a year. [98]

1:3-5 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night...
Like EE, Genesis says that light was around even before the creation of the luminaries. A difference here is that in EE, the light was an attribute of deity, whereas here, it is a creation of the deity.

1:6-10 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
The dividing of substances is a commonality in several creation accounts across cultures -- it is found in Egypt, Phoenicia, and India as well, though the elements in question may differ (water, an egg, etc.)[114-115]. The point being, that it makes better sense to postulate an ancient common source than to suggest borrowing.

1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....(1:19-25)
This, and the creation of animals, has no parallel known in the EE. It is possible that the creation of vegetation and animals was recorded on a part of the EE that was lost; Heidel reports a gap in the record, but doesn't suppose that there was much room for such a report, which would have to fall between astronomical data and a plea from the gods [117]. I would suggest that it is easier to imagine the Babylonians dropping this element rather than Genesis adding it.

1:14-18 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Both EE and Genesis record the creation of the luminaries, and in both cases say that they were for light and time-keeping purposes -- no surprise, since all cultures worldwide use the luminaries for the same purpose. The Babylonian account does take a more "astrological" view, however, as it makes a point of the creation of the zodiac and the partitioning of constellations within. Genesis also reports the creation of luminaries in the reverse order of the EE (which lists the stars first). Genesis is also missing EE's reference to gates at the east and the west of the sky through which the sun and moon pass [116]. One is constrained to ask how critics, who suppose the Hebrews to believe in a solid sky and a flat earth, think that this little tidbit was left out of a copycat story.

1:26-30 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
With this we come to perhaps the most significant difference between EE and Genesis. The creation of man at first blush seems very similar -- God creates man from dust, and imputes with life with His breath or spirit; Marduk gives Ea (another god) a plan to create man, leading Ea to go and kill Kingu (another god yet) and mix his blood with dirt to make man. The basic principles of dirt and divine substance appears in both accounts, but few would deny that Genesis is more sophisticated -- leaving us again to wonder whether positing a "clean up" job is more plausible.

A larger difference, however, emerges in terms of man's purpose. In the EE, man is created because Marduk was prompted in his heart to "create ingeious things" -- man was an ego trip for Marduk! Once that is done, man's purpose is to serve the gods, build their temples, and make sacrifices to them. Men are the gods' boot-polishers. But in Genesis, man is not a servant to God; he is God's agent. (For more on this, particularly image-language, see Chapter 1 of my book, The Mormon Defenders. There is great significance in the point that in other societies than Israel, the "image" language is applied only to rulers! Socially it is more likely that this designation was taken from all men by selfish, power-hungry rulers than that it was expanded by the Hebrews to include all men.)

Finally:

Genesis 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
The gods of the EE "rested" also, after a fashion -- they threw a big party, one that takes up almost two tablets of the EE out of seven, in which Marduk is honored. In that context it is worth noting that some saw a connection between Genesis' 7 days and the EE's 7 tablets, but as noted, the creation takes up only four of EE's tablets, and the EE does not lay out a seven-day pattern of creation.

Our summary conclusion: The views of EE proponents simply do not correspond with the data -- and thus it is not surprising that borrowing-proponents have sought their parallels, as Greenberg has, elsewhere.

http://www.tektonics.org/babgenesis.html

Old Post Jul-26-2004 22:17  France
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torontotrance
I hath returned



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto

I won't get into it, I'm a creationist and I think that the world is too complicated to start by chance.

I will say that both sides have their supporters and it will never end the debate.

Old Post Jul-27-2004 01:12  Canada
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Krypton
83.798 g/6.022x10^23



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Texas

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Ahh, I see. So am I to understand that you do not believe in dinosaurs then?

Well, let me just take your logic a step further - you are therefore concluding that nothing occurred prior to recorded written history? How then, do we conclude certain events occurred prior to written history? If you tell me that there was nothing prior to written history, you must forgive me for laughing out loud. Simple geologic, geographic, and paleobiological observation and understanding undermines this ridiculous notion pretty easily.

But even so, you seem to be implying that the book of Genesis is the oldest history book, since it was written at the beginning of the world. Why then, is it so eerily familiar to the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish story, which is much older?:

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_...sh_creation.htm

http://www.crystalinks.com/babyloniancreation.html


how do i not believe in dinosaurs??

what i meant was, humans were created with the world all in a very short period of time. i didnt mean they were there to witness the creation of it all. im saying, man was there when everything had just been created. so man had witnessed the beginning of all creations, not the creation of all creations.


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Old Post Jul-27-2004 03:37  Korea-Democratic Peoples Republic
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by Seventil
Hey Occ good to see ya!

The correct age of Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem is 22. 2 Kings 8:17 tells us that Ahaziah's father Joram ben Ahab was thirty-two when he became king and he died eight years later, at the age of forty. Therefore, Ahaziah could not have been forty-two at the time of his father's death at age forty." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, page. 206-207.)
The discrepency in ages is due to a copyist error. We can see that the difference in ages is 20 years. The system of number notation used by the Jews at the time of Ezra consisted of horizontal hooks that represented decades. would equal the number 14 where would be 24. If one or both of the hooks were smudged or flaked off of a papyri, then the dates would be off by ten years or a factor of ten.
The fact that this is a copyist error does not invalidate the inspiration or authority of Scripture. Remember, God inspired the originals. They were without error. The copies have problems, though very very few. The copies are copies of inspired documents and, unfortunately, some copyist errors did creep into the manuscripts. However, they do not affect any doctrinal areas and are very rare.


I'm glad to see that you're willing to concede the point that the bible is prone to copyist/translation/and transcription errors ... many a fundie would never deviate from literal translations of the text ... however, in doing so you undermine (from my point of view) the validity of the bible as a whole. What assurances do we have that the doctrinal errors of the bible are not prone to the very same human errors and biases that encompany the multitude of versions that have come out since? If God somehow maintained the sanctity of the core doctrinal messages of the bible, why deviate from maintaining sanctity of the bible as a whole? Similarly, why has the closest authority to God, the church, accepted subsequent versions given the obvious transcriptional or clerical errors which undermine the very credibility of the book? It simply makes no sense that we strictly adhere to the doctrinal teachings of teh bible that suit the beliefs of christianity yet ignore or dismiss the discrepancies that make no sense as "clerical" or transcription errors. But by all means, if all of these errors are due to subsequent transcriptional errors, please point me to the version that can be considered the least "untainted." I would be most interested to read said version, and identify beliefs espoused from modern texts that conflict with what is stated from older texts. Here are the different versions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...sh_translations

Which one should I look to as the direct voice from God?


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Old Post Jul-27-2004 06:25  United States
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occrider
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

quote:
Originally posted by Seventil
I see your point of reasoning. Let me clarify mine.

Dinosaurs. I don't "assume" that dinosaurs were roaming this planet at one time. You don't either. I assume that they were roaming around mainly in the pre-flood earth (4004-2400 BC approx) - you assume they were roaming around from 250 Million BC to 65 Million BC (approximations).

Let me ask you this: Do any of your testing methods - any of them - not rely on assumptions?

Let's say you use radio-active isotope dating to date the age of a rock, and come up with 2 Billion years. You have "assumed": The characteristics of said isotope have been the same for 2 billion years, allowing for accurate testing. You have no way of ever proving this, unless a time machine is invented.

It's like taking one picture of you during your lifetime - say, with your family and child at the dinner table in your mid 30's. Any outside viewer would like at this and think:

1. You are a middle aged adult with a wife and children.
2. You are eating dinner with them.
3. You are having steak, potatoes and kool-aid for dinner.

I assume this all. It seems probable, does it not?

When the actual truth is:

1. You are a middle aged adult with a wife and children.
2. You are eating dinner with your mistress and your estranged child.
3. You are having steak, potatoes and kool-aid for dinner.

I don't know if that analogy really worked.

My point is you can't take a snapshot of the world - like we are doing now - and assume it's been the same forever. That's ignorant and naive.

Now I see your point of view - and I know what the logic is -

Even if things were different way back, they wouldn't be so different as to merit a 250 million year difference. Dating methods can't be THAT far off - maybe 10-50%, but it would still rule creation out. Correct?

I agree with that statement. However, you assume they were not that different. I assume they were very different - one that could be explained by the creation of our world, a different world to live in for 1600 years, then a worldwide flood that completely reshaped the world's climate, geography - everything. There are so many unknowns in something like that happening (because we could never recreate it, or observe it) that it could explain ANY current scientific method being completely and utterly wrong.

Now, I'll give you that some of the "science" behind evolution is convincing - if you take my one rule out. You have to always, always remember that science makes a lot of assumptions (especially in the "dating" category") - that the universe and our little corner of it has always been the same.


Sorry I've been rather busy as of late to address your dating arguments from my last reply. But now that I see your opposition come up again, I feel the need to address this topic once again. You continually state that everything we know about dating is due to the "snapshot" we have of some 50-100 years that we've experienced this technology. However that is untrue as I've thought I've addressed in my previous post. First, one must believe that if the decay properties of said dating element does not hold true perpetually, than ALL elements do not hold true. This is clearly false for the simple reason that ALL the half lives for ALL elements would have to be changing in sync with one another. Even IF such a thing were to occur one would have to assume that such a change would have not been noticeable in the past 100 years of dating. However, those 100 years are approximately 5% of the time since christ's passing. This is not some insignificant percentage. Essentially, one must assume that radioactive decay for ALL elements increased exponentially and suddenly decreased some time in the past 100 years to escape our notice.

Furthermore, even if one were to adopt such rediculous theories, that still doesn't discount the constant decay observed by astronomers of elements millions of light years in distance and therfore million of years in the past. Each observation of various ages is consistent with current decay rates.

Therefore allow me to present a better analogy to suit your skepticism:

I don't believe that Abraham Lincoln ever existed. Why? Because someone with the motive made up his existence, included historical forgeries, faked photos, bribed people to believe he existed, etc. Certainly one could assign a probability of .00001% that he never existed, but for all intents and purposes he EXISTED. Empirically, one could make a far better case for radiometric dating than the existence of Jesus.


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Old Post Jul-27-2004 06:46  United States
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