quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Apparently they don't teach you very well in your school. Fostering an us vs. them mentality won't get you to reason. Although I am sure you can find people who think every thought you'd like them too, the majority of the pro-Bush faction do not deny that the USA's relationship has detriorated around the world. They do however point out a few arguments on the topic: 1) It doesn't matter 2) It's not the first time (hence 1) 3) It's not soley the fault of Bush or Iraq Your open mind seems to have closed. You seemed much more bright previously, I question what your most reccent influence comes from, but it does not seem like it is your own thoughts on the subject matter. I'm not insulting or anything here, just a bit worried for you. You've been retorting to many low-ball attacks and techniques instead of debating on merit.

Actually what I don't agree on is the current events that have transpired in Iraq that has gone against the grain of everything that we were led to believe. You can question my intelligence and put forth facetious statements about my mind being closed and somehow it is not my own thoughts, ironically however I fail to understand your logic in the us vs them statement. I am commenting on what has occured since the Iraq events, unless one is completely blinded by the allegiance to the Bush administration how can we not question what really occured in the Iraq arena. I cannot be fostering an us vs them mentality when in fact my argument is one that America should be working closer with our allies to tackle the issues that we face, especially terrorism. Logic dictates that the more nations on our side leaves less arena for the terrorists to maneuver. How does operating on the premise of a Coalition of the Willing benefit our interests in the long term. The us vs them mentality isn't mine but the current administration

My words are fully mine and moreover I don't have a liberal, leftist professor brainwashing me if that is your assertion, which I find to be just a tad bit insulting. I have argued for the Bush administration in the past when I felt they were undertaking the right actions based on what we were being told, what we were told was infact grossly incorrect and I refuse to be a sucker about it especially when it comes to such a serious issue as War.

As for these statements
1) It doesn't matter
2) It's not the first time (hence 1)
3) It's not soley the fault of Bush or Iraq

You have pretty much given a summation of the Bush administration, its attitudes and the way it conducts its affairs. I know where my vote is going in November and it definitely will not be going to conservatives who have outlined their own agendas which is leading America down a dangerous path. Why is the concept of respecting other nations so hard to grasp I was always a moderate individual, trusted the government and what they were saying before the United Nations leading up to Iraq, disgust at the ultimate outcome has left me more than bitter and with a lot of questions indeed. That is not mere brainwashing Yoepus.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Last edited by NYCTrancefan on Aug-01-2004 at 00:51

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Actually what I don't agree on is the current events that have transpired in Iraq that has gone against the grain of everything that we were led to believe. You can question my intelligence and put forth facetious statements about my mind being closed and somehow it is not my own thoughts, ironically however I fail to understand your logic in the us vs them statement. I am commenting on what has occured since the Iraq events, unless one is completely blinded by the allegiance to the Bush administration how can we not question what really occured in the Iraq arena. My words are fully mine and moreover I don't have a liberal, leftist professor brainwashing me if that is your assertion, which I find to be just a tad bit insulting. I have argued for the Bush administration in the past when I felt they were undertaking the right actions based on what we were being told, what we were told was infact grossly incorrect and I refuse to be a sucker about it especially when it comes to such a serious issue as War. As for these statements 1) It doesn't matter 2) It's not the first time (hence 1) 3) It's not soley the fault of Bush or Iraq You have pretty much given a summation of the Bush administration, its attitudes and the way it conducts its affairs. I know where my vote is going in November and it definitely will not be going to conservatives who have outlined their own agendas which is leading America down a dangerous path. Why is the concept of respecting other nations so hard to grasp I was always a moderate individual, trusted the government and what they were saying before the United Nations leading up to Iraq, disgust at the ultimate outcome has left me more than bitter and with a lot of questions indeed. That is not mere brainwashing Yoepus.

I thought the last straw was when Bush declined to speak at the NAACP convention because he "insulted" blacks, not the current events in iraq.

quote:

it definitely will not be going to conservatives who have outlined their own agendas which is leading America down a dangerous path

I respect your opinion

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec I thought the last straw was when Bush declined to speak at the NAACP convention because he "insulted" blacks, not the current events in iraq. I respect your opinion

Speedracer do me a favor and refrain from the mentioning of blacks or the issue of race, I remember distinctly that you made a post the other day telling me the samething about race. Maybe you should heed your own words. If you read my post on that topic you will see that it went beyond Bush "insulting blacks" If you think that I am somehow under the impression that Bush is a racist, then amazingly why has that never been a part of my sentiments expressed here, and have I had a lot of opportunities to say so in my numerous posts.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Speedracer do me a favor and refrain from the mentioning of blacks or the issue of race, I remember distinctly that you made a post the other day telling me the samething about race. Maybe you should heed your own words. If you read my post on that topic you will see that it went beyond Bush "insulting blacks" If you think that I am somehow under the impression that Bush is a racist, then amazingly why has that never been a part of my sentiments expressed here, and have I had a lot of opportunities to say so in my numerous posts.

No. Dont take it the wrong way. I just remember you were quite upset about that issue when a thread on that was brought up;A bit more upset than the current situation in Iraq.

Plus how would i know how you feel about Bush; this is a political board.
Whether you thought Bush is racist or not...I really dont care.

Well I have no inclination to believe that Bush is racist under any circumstance, as for my level of anger Iraq is the main pulpit for that indeed. If you review my posts you will see that the majority allude to my position on Iraq pre-War vis a vis post-War.

I stay away from the issue of race in dealing with others in all areas possible because it tends to be a negative subject more often than not and race is not what I'm about. As you can see I think its moreover that I tend to be pretty opinionated on a subject.

___________________
Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

Im pretty upset right now.
I just saw the latest poll.
Appears Kerry got a nice bounce in the polls due to the DNC

49-42% now

Can anyone dig up the biggest lead GORE had on BUSH in 2000?

no worries mate. it's called a bounce for a reason

NYCTrancefan,

sorry if you misunderstood my statements they were directed at this part of your argument only:

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan [b]it really leaves me puzzled when people truly believe that America is not viewed in a very negative light because of the events surrounding Iraq especially. I would love to know how many of these individuals that think America's standing in the world has not been affected have travelled elsewhere or even pays attention to or cares about other media outlets in other nations.[b]

Remeber my point 3) - many will point out that the USA has been deeply hated much before Sept 11th which did in fact give it a temporary 'bounce' in its popularity.

My statements directed to you were my own opinion, believe me if I was trying to insult you, you would know. I just known that previously you would divert from ad-hominem and emotional attack for the most part. Seeing you call 'Bush' a shurb in every instance is neither humorous nor affords you with any deep insight into your argumentation.

It's as if I were to call Kerry "Coward" instead of his name in every discussion I would have regarding the man and his policies. Regardless of my agreement with Kerry or not, I know that he, like most every other politician at the end of the day will try and do what they believe is right for America. Just because I don't like the man as a politician, doesn't mean I have to hate him.

Its those little things that have led me to speculate whether you are indeed simply disagree with Bush and the policy regarding Iraq, or indeed hate and despise the man <-- a feature worthy of extremism.

quote:

The us vs them mentality isn't mine but the current administration

Touche`

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by speedracer_mec Can anyone dig up the biggest lead GORE had on BUSH in 2000?

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS...poll/index.html

this time 4 years ago, bush was looking pretty strong... i think the greatest margin gore had was on election day

(keep in mind that clinton's approval rating was still in the high 50s vs. bush's rating of forty-something)

we may see a regime change unless the economy wins the lottery and cheaney dies and the wmds are found and bin laden is found and bush stops spending all his time in texas and iraq stablizes and california sinks into the ocean and...

This election isn't even about liberal versus conservative, or Republican verses Democrat, versus Green, versus libertarian, etc. I believe we need to look at this election through a completely different paradigm altogether at this point.

This election is much more significant than those simplistic ideological or partisan divides, and indeed is perhaps the most significant US election for the United States and the world since 1860.

It's about whether or not we choose to trample on the Bill of Rights or choose to respect our fundamental civil liberties while simultaneously confronting the terror threat.

It’s about whether or not one wants Big Brother looking over their shoulder at the library, the bookstore, or through their private medical records without a warrant.

It's about whether or not we deny millions of Americans – not “gay people,” but Americans - their right to due process in the federal courts as the House of Representatives voted to do the other day.

It's about whether or not our government hires private contractors to torture, rape, and sodomize children, or whether we repudiate that practice and return to the rule of law concerning torture.


It's about whether or not we "lose" another one billion taxpayer dollars down the memory hole to the robber barons.


It’s about whether or not we believe a child’s life is worth $700, or believe that life to be priceless and irreplaceable.

I hear Mr. Bush often talk about “values,” and based on his record I wonder to myself what exactly he does value...

A Republican, a Democrat, a liberal, a conservative, who does not value the fundamental human dignities and rights of man, nor the constitution he or she swore to uphold, DOES NOT SHARE MY VALUES.

Such an individual can only serve to devalue us all as a people.

Last edited by DaveSZ on Aug-01-2004 at 08:49

EEEE EEEAAAA EEEEEAAAA EEEEEK