quote:

Originally posted by tupsox If the French were mostly saints as you would like to imply, they did a pretty lousy job protecting their Jews in World War II when they collaborated with the Nazis to have them deported and sent to camps.

Well, considering their otherwise great job of protecting themselves, it's hardly something you can blame them for...but I agree with occrider, they do seem to have some sort of a swastika fetish...

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Originally posted by Yoepus It is not he Arabs that are necessairly the problem. Recongize that you have a problem with antisemitism, then you can recognize the causes - and yes some of the causes are from the growing Arab populations.

Ok, apparently we disagree on the existence/nature of the problem. I would think that I know best because I live here, but then again, you are the Jew so maybe you are the one knowing this issue best.

But let's suppose that you are right: A growing part of the population of Europe is anti-semitic. Not as a consequence of Israel's conduct in relation to Palestineans and the UN, but genuine illogical hate. Now, what would you have us do?

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Originally posted by tupsox Perceptive. Also of concern is that Arab birth rates are many times those of other Europeans. What will Europe be like in 30 years with such a large, unassimilated minority (or perhaps even majority, in some cases). I belive the key word here is "unassimilated", as you too alluded to.

Agree, too bad that it is not PC to point to the problem, yet alone call it a problem.

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Originally posted by tupsox What a pile of historically ignorant crap. The collaborationist Vichy government helped the Nazis deport Jews to the death camps. This was nothing unique to France. As mentioned previously in the thread, with the except of Bulgaria and most of the Scandinavian countries, every nation of Europe assisted in helping the Nazis with the Jewish problem. The extermination of Jews wasn't carried out only by the Nazis, it was THE ENTIRE CONTINENT OF EUROPE. Perhaps your history classes neglected to mention it, because the past can be so....inconvenient?

There you go again, generalizing from collaborating governments in occupied countries to "THE ENTIRE CONTINENT". Tell me (seeing that I have been lied to all through my education), did any country *which was not occupied by Nazi-Germany* deport Jews to KZ-camps? All it takes is a morally bankrupt collaborating government to cast a shadow over the entire population.

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Originally posted by tupsox I think most Jews were shocked and mortified when Rabin was assassinated, even those who disagreed with his peace-making efforts. He was, after all, an Israeli war hero.

Again, all it takes is a little group of extreme right-wingers. That was pretty much my point: If we apply your reasons for condemning the French of today, we should do the same to practically all other people on the planet, including Jews.

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Originally posted by tupsox Ok, some links ... These are just what I have saved on my computer from the last year, and only scratches the surface of the extent of the problem.

Not impressed, all but one of the links are about France or its baby brother Belgium. That hardly gives you the right to state those sweeping generalizations that you do.

Btw. Have you been to Europe?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, considering their otherwise great job of protecting themselves, it's hardly something you can blame them for...but I agree with occrider, they do seem to have some sort of a swastika fetish...

I'd agree if the French didn't collaborate to deport (and therefore, kill) their Jews.

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Originally posted by trancaholic There you go again, generalizing from collaborating governments in occupied countries to "THE ENTIRE CONTINENT". Tell me (seeing that I have been lied to all through my education), did any country *which was not occupied by Nazi-Germany* deport Jews to KZ-camps? All it takes is a morally bankrupt collaborating government to cast a shadow over the entire population.

True, but not every occupied/axis country assisted in deporting its Jews. See Finland, Bulgaria.

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Again, all it takes is a little group of extreme right-wingers. That was pretty much my point: If we apply your reasons for condemning the French of today, we should do the same to practically all other people on the planet, including Jews.

Running with this example, Israel outlawed and forcefully banned the Kahane Chai movement after Baruch Goldstein went berserk and murdered 30 praying Muslim. Similarly, after the alleged Deir Yassin massacre, the Haganah (Israel's main defence force) forcefully disarmed the perpetrating group, the Irgun. Now, I think in the past few months, European governments have been making progress fighting anti-Semitism, France in particular.

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Not impressed, all but one of the links are about France or its baby brother Belgium. That hardly gives you the right to state those sweeping generalizations that you do. Btw. Have you been to Europe?

Yes, though not extensively. Europe is by no means a "Nazi shithole" or anything like that. But it does have an anti-Semitism problem in its mist; some of this a result of Muslim immigration, some of it rooted much deeper (like at the Lazio-Juventus match a few years back when one of the sections held up a giant banner "Jews to the gas! Auschwitz is your home" or something to that extent...that really freaked me out). Any hate can and will grow if unchecked, with disasterous results. I'll concede I've been a tad broad in my generalizations; though Europe has a duty more than anyone else to fight anti-Semitism in particular because of what it has led to in the past.

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Originally posted by trancaholic But let's suppose that you are right: A growing part of the population of Europe is anti-semitic. Not as a consequence of Israel's conduct in relation to Palestineans and the UN, but genuine illogical hate. Now, what would you have us do?

Haha, good question, really it's not like our governments aren't doing anything about it.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Haha, good question, really it's not like our governments aren't doing anything about it.

what are they doing? is it realy enough?

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quote:

Originally posted by Flotser what are they doing? is it realy enough?

All kind of informitive things.
All the media is strongly against it and have propaganda all the time.
It's (unlike in the US) illegal.
Racist (incl anti semitism) has high priority with the police.

etc. really i don't know what more you could do.

that is of course sweden, could be otherwise in other countries... but don't think it is that different

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Originally posted by St_Andrew All kind of informitive things. All the media is strongly against it and have propaganda all the time. It's (unlike in the US) illegal. Racist (incl anti semitism) has high priority with the police. etc. really i don't know what more you could do. that is of course sweden, could be otherwise in other countries... but don't think it is that different

True. The general media here put anti-semitism high on the agenda. A lot of editorials discuss the subject on an almost regular basis. Our government has made it a key point to make the history of the holocaust a high priority in schools and recently we have had high profile international conferences about it in Sweden.

Germany is very active against neo-nazism and anti-semitism. They probably have the most strict laws regarding these issues compared to anywhere else. Even just being in possession of a nazi item is illegal.

However, as long as we do not live in perfect utopias there will always be individuals or group of people who blame there own shortfalls or miserable positions on other groups. We'll never get 100% rid of groups like the neo-nazis. And that goes for the US as well.

Sure, anti-semitism is a problem, but so is other hate crimes against arabs, homosexuals, you name it.

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Last edited by Johan (DJ Irish) on Aug-13-2004 at 13:25

quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish Germany is very active against neo-nazism and anti-semitism. They probably have the most strict laws regarding these issues compared to anywhere else. Even just being in possession of a nazi item is illegal.

Funny thing is that in Denmark it is legal to be a Nazi, and it is legal for them to have their own radio, hand out leaflets, march in the streets etc. Yet, we have very very few hate crimes against Arabs - even though they constitute a large part of our population. To me that's a strong indication that outlawing freedom of speech/expression is a bad idea. When people are allowed to say whatever they like they don't build up inner tension which ultimately ends in violence.

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Originally posted by Dj_Irish Sure, anti-semitism is a problem, but so is other hate crimes against arabs, homosexuals, you name it.

A year ago an Italian back-packer was stabbed to death in Copenhagen while trying to buy some pot. The people of Copenhagen was very upset about this, and there was a lot of sympathy protests.
Just recently, marking the one year anniversary of his death people have put flowers on the spot. And here comes the interesting fact: during nightfall some person or persons have been burning these flowers - just to cause havoc, get attention, or whatever.
My point is, if that student had happened to be a Jew, you would see this vandalism mentioned in all the international media, crying out about anti-semitism. And I think that sometimes the reported cases of anti-semitism really isn't, but rather vandalism that is sure to get attention.

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Originally posted by trancaholic My point is, if that student had happened to be a Jew, you would see this vandalism mentioned in all the international media, crying out about anti-semitism. And I think that sometimes the reported cases of anti-semitism really isn't, but rather vandalism that is sure to get attention.

My thoughts exactly. Although I'm not suggesting that every action against jews is a general attention seeking thing I do believe that a lot of it is. Especially the vandalism scenarios since they will always get heavy and immediate media attention. At least around here.

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Looks like its time to make this thread a sticky.

Notre Dame Hit With Anti-Semitic Graffiti

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PARIS - Anti-Semitic graffiti, including a sign saying "death to Jews," was found Saturday scrawled on the grounds of the Notre Dame cathedral in Paris