That´s true, human audible spectrum is 20Hz-20KHz, however you can feel frequencies lower than 20Hz, why do you think some subwoofers work with frequencies between 5Hz and 100Hz?? why do they build them if human hear cant percieve that frequencies?, because you can feel it, that sensation in your chest and in your clothes when you are in front of a good sound system. Vinyl can reproduce low frequencies in a very good way, cd´s an digital formats just cant do it lower than 20, and in a bad way in the lower frequencies, perhaps when putting up freq.sampling the do in a better way. So in a club environment vinyl is important. Perhaps normal people cant tell you the difference, however in any way, they know when a club has a good sound system. When the vinyl is pressed most of the digitalized effect of the machines disaper, in some way the digital steps are interpolated when pressed. And remember that most of the machines and professional formats work at 24bits/96Khz.
And about mp3, they don´t eliminate inaudible frequencies, what they do is eliminate some sounds that, when sounding in conjuction with other sounds human ear can´t hear very well. For example some low freqs sounding together with high freqs, but that freqs. are audible, if they sound alone they are audible, they are in the audible spectrum i mean.
In the other hand digital formats have a more linear response and less noise.

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Originally posted by groovable That´s true, human audible spectrum is 20Hz-20KHz, however you can feel frequencies lower than 20Hz, why do you think some subwoofers work with frequencies between 5Hz and 100Hz?? why do they build them if human hear cant percieve that frequencies?, because you can feel it, that sensation in your chest and in your clothes when you are in front of a good sound system. Vinyl can reproduce low frequencies in a very good way, cd´s an digital formats just cant do it lower than 20, and in a bad way in the lower frequencies, perhaps when putting up freq.sampling the do in a better way. So in a club environment vinyl is important. Perhaps normal people cant tell you the difference, however in any way, they know when a club has a good sound system. When the vinyl is pressed most of the digitalized effect of the machines disaper, in some way the digital steps are interpolated when pressed. And remember that most of the machines and professional formats work at 24bits/96Khz. And about mp3, they don´t eliminate inaudible frequencies, what they do is eliminate some sounds that, when sounding in conjuction with other sounds human ear can´t hear very well. For example some low freqs sounding together with high freqs, but that freqs. are audible, if they sound alone they are audible, they are in the audible spectrum i mean. In the other hand digital formats have a more linear response and less noise.

You know, I used to have 3 15" woofers in my tahoe and all it had was a CD player. It did pretty good at producing inaudible frequencies that would vibrate the steering wheel even. Clubs can produce that earth shaking bass off CD.... believe.

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I believe you, perhaps if you try that subwoofers with a vinyl you obtain even better sound. I know what you mean, i heard small subs in small roms and the low freq sensation is really impressive, very clear. In a club that feeling is not so detailed.

I would think that for a cdj to have mp3 support would pose more of an ethical problem than a sound one (Although the sound is a problem). I read a post the other day about how clubs get raided and dj's get their stuff confiscated and have to prove that their mp3s and cdrs are legal copies.

Now I don't know about you guys, but is it really worth it to every now and again have your music confiscated and the hassle of having to prove that every song is legal? Imagine this happens even once a year and you have hundreds of mp3s that need to be proven legal?
And people will definatly start playing illegal tracks because who will know that you slipped a non bought track between all the bought ones?

I can understand mp3 samples and stuff being used to livin up a mix, but I am not all together for them as a media.

I do personaly think that technology will one day replace dj's though.
Mood sensing high power computers with lazers that light up and cause effects, but also enough power to fry anyone that attempts to leave the dance floor.

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Originally posted by groovable That´s true, human audible spectrum is 20Hz-20KHz, however you can feel frequencies lower than 20Hz, why do you think some subwoofers work with frequencies between 5Hz and 100Hz?? why do they build them if human hear cant percieve that frequencies?, because you can feel it, that sensation in your chest and in your clothes when you are in front of a good sound system. Vinyl can reproduce low frequencies in a very good way, cd´s an digital formats just cant do it lower than 20, and in a bad way in the lower frequencies, perhaps when putting up freq.sampling the do in a better way. So in a club environment vinyl is important. Perhaps normal people cant tell you the difference, however in any way, they know when a club has a good sound system. When the vinyl is pressed most of the digitalized effect of the machines disaper, in some way the digital steps are interpolated when pressed. And remember that most of the machines and professional formats work at 24bits/96Khz. And about mp3, they don´t eliminate inaudible frequencies, what they do is eliminate some sounds that, when sounding in conjuction with other sounds human ear can´t hear very well. For example some low freqs sounding together with high freqs, but that freqs. are audible, if they sound alone they are audible, they are in the audible spectrum i mean. In the other hand digital formats have a more linear response and less noise.

the thing about CDs not having lower frequencies is rubbish, if you knew how wav's were encoded you would know why: if you record the pure sound to cd you can have frequencies of 0-22khz, its only the smaller waves that are at frequencies higher than 22khz as the cd records at 44,000 samples per second which means the peak and the trough of a 22khz wave. this means that a sound at 10hz could be recorded with a sample rate as low 20hz, but we wouldnt be able to hear it ourselves, still feel it though.

as for mo3, im not sure how eexactly mp3 encodes, it finds the peaks and troughs and then uses mathematical functions to make up the rest of the waveform? im not sure and id liek to know, but im sure this will only limit higher frequencies unless its told to look between 20hz-20khz for example, which i highly doubt as it would try and immitate the CD's sampling standard.

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Last edited by Ste on Oct-30-2004 at 19:18

so the denon s5000 lists it's low end frequency responce at 20hz. how in the name of fuck does it produce 5hz if that's well below it's frequency response range?

Mmmm the problem with the high frequencies is that if you dont filter them then you can obtain an alias effect, if you have a 44hz sampling rate and there are freqs over 22Hz you can obtain some strange freqs in the range below 22Hz, for example a 24Hz signal sampled at 44Hz results in a 20Hz signal mixed in the sound, the phase is also altered. About the low freqs, the cd audio format says this:


Format: CD Sample rate: 44.1 Bits: 16 Stereo/Mono: Stereo Data Rate: 176.4 KBytes/sec Frequency Band: 20-20,000 Hz

Anyway, most of the hardware works at 20-20000Hz.
But the problem of coding in pulses (pcm) low freqs is that the digitalized effect is higher since biggers steps appear, due to the use of only 16bits, the same as the step effect you see in videogames when a line with a angle near to 0 or near to 90.

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Originally posted by failsafe so the denon s5000 lists it's low end frequency responce at 20hz. how in the name of fuck does it produce 5hz if that's well below it's frequency response range?

thats because its a poor cdj player. the cdj1000 is 4 Hz-20kHz.

however i fail to see why it cannot output lower frequencies, because at the end of the day a 2hz wave can fit 10,000 20khz waves in, so basically you could record 10,000 segments of a 2hz wave using .wav which should mean there should be no minimum frequencey. not the other way around which groovable seem to explain it as. perhaps he could explain it better...

i mean think of it this way, you have to draw a picture of a 10hz wave, your recording at 44khz which means the horizontal of the image would be 44,000 pixels wide. and because your recording in 16 bit, you have 2^16 (65536) pixels high. now the 10hz wave is going to fit 10 times on your image because it is ten oscilations per second, and were recording the image over a second. so if you wanted to see onyl one wave, you would have 4,400 pixels horizontally but still have 65536 virtical. now perhaps you can see where im coming from, how could you possibly not be able to record the low frequency wave. even a 1 hz wave would be on an image of 44000x65536. it when you get to the higher frequencies ( eg 22khz wave would be on a 2 pixels wide image ) where the waves start to get filtered out and become less detailed.

however, as far as the denon cd deck goes, i presume the "frequency response" means the lowest frequency its sound processor bothers picking up the wave forms for things like effects, "wowing" when you move the jogwheel and scratching?

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Not gonna get too involved in this one but basically the guys who have said vinyl sounds better are correct. The question is, do clubbers care? The answer I think is actually yes. I saw a DJ get booed this weekend at a place I was playing because of sound system issues that were not his doing. So the answer is yes, clubbers care.
Keeping in mind that a lot of clubbers are at the very least bedroom DJs. And we all know how much we actually pay attention to what is going on with the sound.

Worth mentioning though that on a poor sound system what ever you play will sound crap.

Cheers
Nem

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techinical measurements aside, I'd like to see someone get a proper survey done of this. Get 100 random people in a club, under normal conditions. That is, a regular night with a good size crowd. get a dj to note down which tracks were played from cd and mp3 and vinyl, get the survey group to guess which was which, and to rate the sound quality on a scale from perfect to noticably lower to a point where it would affect their enjoyment.
anyone out there looking for a thesis topic in statistics or engineering? this is a topic with plenty of practical applications.

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Originally posted by tubby techinical measurements aside, I'd like to see someone get a proper survey done of this. Get 100 random people in a club, under normal conditions. That is, a regular night with a good size crowd. get a dj to note down which tracks were played from cd and mp3 and vinyl, get the survey group to guess which was which, and to rate the sound quality on a scale from perfect to noticably lower to a point where it would affect their enjoyment. anyone out there looking for a thesis topic in statistics or engineering? this is a topic with plenty of practical applications.

no one would get it right. you have the audiophiles and technology nerds on here rattling on about sound quality but the fact of the matter is, no one would really notice. Clubbers are there to dance, drink and meet people to hump. They're not there with pocket protectors debating over what kind of medium the music is being played on -- that only happens on tranceaddict.

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that's why you'd need a statistically significant sample size. You want that representation of the sound geeks, the trashy folks, the die-hard clubber, the wander in off the street drunk people, a true cross section of clubbing life to show who and how much they found the sound quality significant.