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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Another fuckin useless thread by shadowolf. Muslims gonna take over the world so I suggest you shoot urself in the head before they come and get ya

you're done with your bunker?

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i am not interested in the reasons why OBL declared war on my country six years ago. i am not interested in why Jamhal Islamia seeks to spread like a plague. i am interested in a solution. that solution involves military force among a host of many other things that my country is doing. one thing we will not do is abandon the Saudis or Israel or Jordan or any Arab country that is interested in peace. you say my president has disenfranchised Islamic peace? i say he's doing every thing he can to give long term peace to Islam.

You say you are not interested in causes, but are interested in a solution. But I tell you that the solution lies in understanding the causes that you choose to ignore. I understand that from an American perspective, it's quite hard to realize, come to grips, or even admit that these causes are attributable to your country to a rather large extent, but until you come to terms with this, you'll continue to trumpet the virtues of force over sanity and continue to dig yourself and your country into a hole that you won't be able to climb out of.

Forceful removal of a regime, despite the fact that the regime was oppressive and unjust is not acceptable as a long term solution because it was done by an outsider, an outsider that has a track record of being partial to non-arab interests. The outsider will obviously be viewed as two-faced, hypocritical, and in search of his own vested interests in a region where this same outsider is not very well liked, by the majority of Arabs and Muslims, including the most moderate of those elements.

You seem like an honest enough person when you claim that you want freedom for the oppressed. You have to realize however that force does not translate into this freedom that you wish upon these people.

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Originally posted by Epicurus You say you are not interested in causes, but are interested in a solution. But I tell you that the solution lies in understanding the causes that you choose to ignore. I understand that from an American perspective, it's quite hard to realize, come to grips, or even admit that these causes are attributable to your country to a rather large extent, but until you come to terms with this, you'll continue to trumpet the virtues of force over sanity and continue to dig yourself and your country into a hole that you won't be able to climb out of.

oh, i am well aware of OBL's justifications. i read his Fatwa all the time. no shit. also, fully aware of the percieved westernizations claimed by all. trust me, i don't ignore the enemies justifications neither does any good commander. the fact remains is that they are unreasonable. do you agree? if not, then we have more than a fundamental misunderstanding of western ideals of freedom.

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Forceful removal of a regime, despite the fact that the regime was oppressive and unjust is not acceptable as a long term solution because it was done by an outsider, an outsider that has a track record of being partial to non-arab interests. The outsider will obviously be viewed as two-faced, hypocritical, and in search of his own vested interests in a region where this same outsider is not very well liked, by the majority of Arabs and Muslims, including the most moderate of those elements.

peace is about to be maintained by an insider and the majority of the parties involved understand that much. again. the ones who don't will learn soon enough.

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You seem like an honest enough person when you claim that you want freedom for the oppressed. You have to realize however that force does not translate into this freedom that you wish upon these people.

no offence, but history is more than just a classroom

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf Rotterdam, Malmo and many French cities are already majority Muslim. France will be majority Muslim in 15 years. Bin Laden himself talked about the Reconquista. He failed to mention of course that the Muslims were the original aggressors.

This is nonsense I m sure that Rotterdam and many french cities are not adready majority muslims. There aren't majorit foreigners. Marsseile is maybe the only city with majority foreigners. So i know you are talking bullshit and wanna spread lies and hate against muslims moron.

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the fact remains is that they are unreasonable. do you agree?

If you think that the US being pro-Israeli, in continuous pursuit of oil resources in the Middle East and in favour of "stabilization" of the region (this, according to the new-cons) are not valid "justifications" for a rise in radical islam, then you're in denial and we obviously won't get very far in our discussion.

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if not, then we have more than a fundamental misunderstanding of western ideals of freedom.

I have a perfect understanding of western ideals of freedom and I find it incongruent that you're attempting to link my disagreement with you about justifications with western ideals of freedom.

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peace is about to be maintained by an insider and the majority of the parties involved understand that much. again. the ones who don't will learn soon enough.

Thank you for you assurances. I'll make sure to hit you up 5 years from now when havoc still reigns in Iraq.

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no offence, but history is more than just a classroom

No offence, but I've been on the battle field as opposed to you.

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Originally posted by ShadoWolf There's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Their immediate goal is to conquer Europe, and then to destroy the West.

fuckin ignorant
you're just as bad as the islamofascists themselves, spreading your hate

Q5echo, one thing to think about in this debate, as you say that we need to use force to take out whomever needs to be. Whether you feel they are valid or invalid reasons, our foreign policy is not liked by many people in the Middle East who are not terrorists. When we attack another country, even if you feel it is for valid reason, keep in mind that many innocent people there who lose loved ones see it the same way as we felt after 9/11.
A lot of Iraqis have died and what is about to occur in Fallujah, which was purposely delayed until after the elections, may cause many more casulaties. It is dangerous to try to just wipe out threats without building bridges everywhere possible, because actions may be perceived as being ill-intentioned and turn people against us. This is why we must reach out to the rest of the world for cooperation and help,so our image improves and we are perceived as allies.

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Epicurus,

I'm curious... What legitimate grievance were the cause for the 'effect' of having three planes flown into buildings and killing thousands of innocents by suprise and with no warning or decleration?

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Originally posted by Epicurus No offence, but I've been on the battle field as opposed to you.

then you, more than anyone else here, should realize that more freedom has come from a barrel of a gun than any tool man has created.

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Originally posted by Epicurus Thank you for you assurances. I'll make sure to hit you up 5 years from now when havoc still reigns in Iraq. .

if 5 years from now some moron is still driving his car laden with explosives into a crowded Iraqi market, then what has Islam done for itself that would prevent such stupidity that the US has helped to realize?

Is it just me or does anyone else smell a holy war brewing across the globe?

Yoepus,
Is it normal I ask you, that in a large part of the world, and with a large majority of people, that region being the Middle East and those people being Arabs and Muslims, that September 11 was viewed not as a tragedy but as just payback for the wrongs that the US has committed against them?

I have always condemned September 11 because the killing of innocent civilians is unacceptable. However, I do recognize that these people in these regions have legitimate reasons to hate the United States and understand why they would wish them this tragedy, although I personally don't.

The point I'm trying to make is that continuing to support Israel unequivocally, continuing to act on imperialist-like foreign policies, continuing to wage war for control of oil reserves and stabilization purposes, all purposes that are unjust, will give radical Islam good justifications to expand as it has, and people will continue to support it across the region you wish peace upon because they will agree that their cause is legitimit and just.