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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: can u tell me where we get our logical reasoning from? ide like to know what u think. what makes your logic superior over my logic, and what makes a secular's logic, superior to any other groups logic?

that is an interesting argument actually. "My" logic is superiour to others in this case because it actually uses evidence/rational thinking. If you dont use your logic on anyone else, i am fine with the fact that you have another way of reasoning, but when you start to argue that you have the right to use your logic upon others, that is just wrong. Now you could of course say that i as a supporter of gay marriage (with secular logic) am forceing my belief on people with another opinion than mine, however i do no force you to do anything, you can still have your traditional marriages, at the same time as gays, with another belief can have their marriages. If i with my secular logic proved that god doesnt exsist, that doesnt mean that i can force people to not believe in god, cause that would be to force my belief upon someone else, and i dont, cause i have respect for what others think.

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a law isnt a law until u enforce it. all the laws in the world still wouldnt treat all people equally. prisoners are not treated equally. is that wrong?

Prisoners have pretty much the same basic rights as everyone else, the only thing they cant do is that they cant move freely. that is because they have been proven to be a danger to other people in society, and should therefore be kept seperate.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Well, yes you are right, they believe that marriage is between a man and a women. They think its wrong with gay marriages. However, what right does that give them to say that since they in their belief dont believe in gay marriages, discriminate other people! Prove to me that homosexuallity is not a natural thing the majority in the states used to support racial laws too, does that mean it was right? well, even tho gay marriage would be legal, that doesnt mean that the churces have to marry them, you can marry in a non christian place by a non christian person, marriage is not a definite religous thing, at least not anymore. i would never support a law that would force a church (as a non government instutution) to have gay marriages. and civil unions does not give people the same righs as marriage, so that doesn make sense.

prove to you homosexuality isnt natural? your not serious are you?

homosexuals arent being discriminated against at all. we have laws protecting them against that. but what they want is elevated status over single individuals and to that of a married couple. and thats where the moral issue lies. is it right for them to marry or not. the traditional morality says that it is wrong for homosexuals to marry, and its wrong to live the homosexual lifestyle itself. i think everyone knows homosexuality is wrong whether they admit it or not.
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the states did have racial laws of discrimination in place, but they did not base it on morality. they based on their angry sentiment over the conclusion of the civil war and of centuries of slavery under white people which over the years created a sentiment that whites were superior to blacks. that was not right.

but homosexuals have no such laws in place of outright, blatant discrimination. they have all the basic rights of all americans, but they are trying to get a right that has been reserved for specific individuals, and has been since the beginning of the human race.
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it should be either civil unions or nothing at all. to have the same rights as a married couple was essentially mean the same status as a married male and female.

im sorry, but there are just some things that each one of us just cant do. i cant walk in a buy a beer from a gas station. but im not crying about it calling it age discrimination.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew that is an interesting argument actually. "My" logic is superiour to others in this case because it actually uses evidence/rational thinking. If you dont use your logic on anyone else, i am fine with the fact that you have another way of reasoning, but when you start to argue that you have the right to use your logic upon others, that is just wrong. Now you could of course say that i as a supporter of gay marriage (with secular logic) am forceing my belief on people with another opinion than mine, however i do no force you to do anything, you can still have your traditional marriages, at the same time as gays, with another belief can have their marriages. If i with my secular logic proved that god doesnt exsist, that doesnt mean that i can force people to not believe in god, cause that would be to force my belief upon someone else, and i dont, cause i have respect for what others think. Prisoners have pretty much the same basic rights as everyone else, the only thing they cant do is that they cant move freely. that is because they have been proven to be a danger to other people in society, and should therefore be kept seperate.

what evidence have you presented to support your "superior logic"? i have not seen one. actually u are forcing married men and women to be on the same level as two men being married to each other. some people dont like to downgrade their vows of love to that of two men or two women.
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you, in your secular belief can never prove god doesnt exist, and niether can i, that is why faith is so important. but i have experienced things, and i have read and seen things that give me more evidence that god does exist than not exist.
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and we come back to our circular arguement that just keeps going round and round. your enforcing your secular beliefs upon me, and im forcing my christian beliefs upon you. that final. your suggesting christians are forcing their beliefs on other people, but seculars are doing exactly the same thing. its just the seculars just want christians to be quiet and remain idle while they hack away at morality day by day.
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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: prove to you homosexuality isnt natural? your not serious are you?

yes i am serious, prove me wrong.

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homosexuals arent being discriminated against at all. we have laws protecting them against that. but what they want is elevated status over single individuals and to that of a married couple. and thats where the moral issue lies. is it right for them to marry or not. the traditional morality says that it is wrong for homosexuals to marry, and its wrong to live the homosexual lifestyle itself.

what does traditional (christian) morality have anything with it to do?

Logic > Traditional Morals

How can you possible say that to not give Gay people the same right to marry (and therefore get a lot of government benefits too) as straight people is not discriminating?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discriminate
dis·crim·i·nate Audio pronunciation of "discriminate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nt)
v. dis·crim·i·nat·ed, dis·crim·i·nat·ing, dis·crim·i·nates
v. intr.

1.
1. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available.
2. To make sensible decisions; judge wisely.
2. To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies.

Please explain more im confused

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i think everyone knows homosexuality is wrong whether they admit it or not.

That you actually said this scared the hell out of me. It is wrong in so many ways that i dont know where to begin.

But just to prove you wrong, I for example dont think homosexuals are wrong in any way whatsoever. Why wouldnt i admit it if i thought so? And all the homosexuals, they themselves think they are wrong too?

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the states did have racial laws of discrimination in place, but they did not base it on morality. they based on their angry sentiment over the conclusion of the civil war and of centuries of slavery under white people which over the years created a sentiment that whites were superior to blacks. that was not right.

no but the people at the time thought it was right, and the churches supported it... In 200 years perhaps most people in the US will realize that not giving people the same right is to discriminate even when it comes to sexual orientation.

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but homosexuals have no such laws in place of outright, blatant discrimination. they have all the basic rights of all americans, but they are trying to get a right that has been reserved for specific individuals, and has been since the beginning of the human race.

again, WTF!

they have the same rights as everyone else? huh? how can you explain that when they are NOT allowed to marry!?

reserved for specific induviduals? according to christians, perhaps. According to non christians, NO.

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it should be either civil unions or nothing at all. to have the same rights as a married couple was essentially mean the same status as a married male and female.

Same status, yes thats what im arguing for! Now you say it yourself, that gays cant get the same status as hetrosexual people?!

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im sorry, but there are just some things that each one of us just cant do. i cant walk in a buy a beer from a gas station. but im not crying about it calling it age discrimination.

well, if you are mature enough to buy a beer i would say it is age discrimniation.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: what evidence have you presented to support your "superior logic"? i have not seen one. actually u are forcing married men and women to be on the same level as two men being married to each other. some people dont like to downgrade their vows of love to that of two men or two women.

so what you are saying is that it is an insult for married men and women that men and men can marry, since that would mean they would be on the same level? And to be on the same level as an gay would be the most terrible thing that could happen?

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you, in your secular belief can never prove god doesnt exist, and niether can i, that is why faith is so important. but i have experienced things, and i have read and seen things that give me more evidence that god does exist than not exist.

well i respect your belief, and i would never say that i could prove it wrong. What im saying is that a person that is sure that he/she can prove god to not exsist, cannot force you to not believe in god since its your right to believe in whatever you want to. Same thing as you can never prove that your views of gays is the right one, and should therefore not force your belief upon them since it cant hurt you that they can marry.

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and we come back to our circular arguement that just keeps going round and round. your enforcing your secular beliefs upon me, and im forcing my christian beliefs upon you. that final. your suggesting christians are forcing their beliefs on other people, but seculars are doing exactly the same thing. its just the seculars just want christians to be quiet and remain idle while they hack away at morality day by day.

How am i forcing my beliefs upon yours? You can continue your life EXACLTY in the same way as before if gay marriage would be legalized. The only different would be that homosexuals could enjoy the same freedoms as you can.

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Prove to me that homosexuallity is not a natural thing the majority in the states used to support racial laws too, does that mean it was right? well, even tho gay marriage would be legal, that doesnt mean that the churces have to marry them, you can marry in a non christian place by a non christian person, marriage is not a definite religous thing, at least not anymore. i would never support a law that would force a church (as a non government instutution) to have gay marriages. and civil unions does not give people the same righs as marriage, so that doesn make sense.

well homosexuality really is not a natural thing, it is an aberration, a freak of nature, like a two headed pig. The simple logic is because everything on this planet is here for one single purpose, to reproduce and that is why there is a penis and vagina. The concept of liking your own gender goes against the laws of nature, in that reproduction becomes impossible.

I dont' think it is wrong, they should be accepted just as much as the two headed pig and not discriminated against.

racial laws were always wrong, that is moreso a change of outwardly appearance based on origin of birth, not a physical difference.

Marriage however really just a bond between two people, nothing more so I don't see anything wrong with homosexuals being married. It CAN be however in the discretion of a religious group of whether or not that is accepted based on their beliefs. So a church can refuse to marry a gay couple if the religion of that church is opposed to gay marriage as you stated.

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well, im going to end my involvement here, we all have our views, and we hold them very strongly. niether side is going to budge. my morality, the christian morality, is not my personal morality but that of god. everything bad today was originally for a good purpose.

god created man, and he created woman to be a companion to man, because not one animal helper satisfied man. so eve was created, and two flesh became one. they were told to populate the world rule over it. stemming from this, u cant reproduce homosexually and populate a world. and if everyone was homosexual, the human race would become extinct. that is why its not natural.

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what does traditional (christian) morality have anything with it to do? Logic > Traditional Morals How can you possible say that to not give Gay people the same right to marry (and therefore get a lot of government benefits too) as straight people is not discriminating? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discriminate dis·crim·i·nate Audio pronunciation of "discriminate" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nt) v. dis·crim·i·nat·ed, dis·crim·i·nat·ing, dis·crim·i·nates v. intr. 1. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available. 2. To make sensible decisions; judge wisely. 2. To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies. Please explain more im confused ?

because the law is not attacking them, they are attacking the law. laws are to forbid an act. the marraige law doesnt forbid homosexuality. it allows the marraige of a male and female, and forbids anything else. i cant marry a cat, or another male. the law isnt attacking homosexuals like the jim crow laws did to blacks.

maybe a comprimise could be set of civil unions with the most important benefits, such as access to hospital rooms, if one dies, the other gets the property, things like that. ide be all for that.

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That you actually said this scared the hell out of me. It is wrong in so many ways that i dont know where to begin. But just to prove you wrong, I for example dont think homosexuals are wrong in any way whatsoever. Why wouldnt i admit it if i thought so? And all the homosexuals, they themselves think they are wrong too?

ok, if its not so wrong, would u ever have sex with a man?? all the homosexual men ive met, told me themselves, they hated the feelings they had. they wished it was for a woman. something always happened in their lives to set their path this way such as molestation, no father, curiosity that runs wild. they explitcitly told me they knew it was wrong while they were doing it, and they didnt even believe in god at that time. ive met about 3 or 4, and they all had turned away from that life through god.

but, there are those, probably a great number who will say, i love men, its not wrong, etc. i believe those are the ones who's consious's have been seared, feeling no guilt for wrong acts or knowing what is right or wrong. not in the way a murderer would not know right or wrong(insanity). but in the attitude of "whatever i want to do, im going to do." oliver crowlee, the founder of modern satanism in 1904 wrote in his book, "Do what thou willst." essentially, do whatever u want.

NOTE: my morality comes from what the bible says, not from my personal feelings.

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no but the people at the time thought it was right, and the churches supported it... In 200 years perhaps most people in the US will realize that not giving people the same right is to discriminate even when it comes to sexual orientation.

no, most of the time, it was the southern churches that supported it. and again, it stems from the history of the black being under the whites for so many years. over that long period of time, of course there is going to be the feeling superiority of whites over blacks. and ill say, there is no biblical reference to support segregation, racial superiority, or slavery. and dont confuse slavery from 1500's-1865 with slavery from B.C.-early A.D. times.

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again, WTF! they have the same rights as everyone else? huh? how can you explain that when they are NOT allowed to marry!? reserved for specific induviduals? according to christians, perhaps. According to non christians, NO.

they cant marry their same sex, but they can marry someone of the opposite sex. if homosexual marraige isnt wrong, then if i am into beastiality, and i want to marry a horse, then i should be able to do that right? if not, then thats discrimination. to a non-christian, is beastiality wrong? if not, then i should be able to kill the man in the street that looks at me a funny way, and i hope thats wrong to a non-christain. if yes, then why is beastiality wrong and homosexuality right.

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Same status, yes thats what im arguing for! Now you say it yourself, that gays cant get the same status as hetrosexual people?!

yes, thats my view.

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well, if you are mature enough to buy a beer i would say it is age discrimniation.

who are u to tell me i am not mature enough? u dont know me. youve never met me. why do u have authority to tell me i cant drink, when i know im mature enough? i also have a sports car that ive souped up to go a top speed of 160MPH. im 17, and i know i have the life experience to drink. **REALITY**im 17, and i think im invincible. the drinking laws are in place to save lives so that risky 17 year old know-it-alls like me dont do something stupid and get behind the wheel and kill somebody with my car. and dont tell me u didnt do anything stupid when u were in the teen years.

the reason behind the marraige law is to protect the basic family values against curruption.

i also, hope youve heard about the hundreds of gay divorces that have already come out of this gay marraige deal. u really only see the poster models of gay couples in the media.

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so what you are saying is that it is an insult for married men and women that men and men can marry, since that would mean they would be on the same level? And to be on the same level as an gay would be the most terrible thing that could happen?

if u consider homosexuality to be a sin, then that would mean your marraige(male/female) which is rightfully so, is now not so rightfully so, and now on the level of sin. but u dont consider a sin, u think its right. but we both live in the same world, and im not going to live in a world where my marraige is brought down to the level of sin.

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well i respect your belief, and i would never say that i could prove it wrong. What im saying is that a person that is sure that he/she can prove god to not exsist, cannot force you to not believe in god since its your right to believe in whatever you want to. Same thing as you can never prove that your views of gays is the right one, and should therefore not force your belief upon them since it cant hurt you that they can marry.

being offended is being hurt. if i was married, ide be offended, because it goes against my views and the views that have been in place for millinea.

let me ask u one question. where did marriage come from??

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How am i forcing my beliefs upon yours? You can continue your life EXACLTY in the same way as before if gay marriage would be legalized. The only different would be that homosexuals could enjoy the same freedoms as you can.

ill say again, they already can enjoy the same freedoms we can, technically speaking, they can marry anybody, as long its of the opposite sex. if something goes against my beliefs, im going to voice my opinion and influece no matter what.
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and at that, good debating with ya St_Andrew. plz answer back but try to end the discussion between me and you. we both have our opposing views, and no ones going to back down, but at least we had a go at it.

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Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: god created man, and he created woman to be a companion to man, because not one animal helper satisfied man.

did god create herpes?

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Originally posted by .montecarlo. did god create herpes?

if it exists, then it has a creator. but see, if u take the time to wait until marriage and get married, then u would know if your partner has any STD's.

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I thought this thread was called
What would the consequences be if Christianity and Islam were merged?

Not Is Christianity tolerant of gays?

Can we get back on topic.

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Originally posted by ogvh5150 I thought this thread was called What would the consequences be if Christianity and Islam were merged? Not Is Christianity tolerant of gays? Can we get back on topic.

yo, SHUT UP, we've already discussed the merger of religions and have concluded that it'd cause nothing but turmoil. after reaching a conclusion, the conversation is "supposed" to move on, which it has. add something to the debate or stop whining

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Maybe if muslim and christian gays were allowed to get married....MMmmm....just a thought