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Originally posted by Cal And since males are still tested, therefore there's discrimination agains males!

Yep.

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Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

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Originally posted by Radagast Not when the motives of said person/organization are questionable and they're the only source of evidence for their argument.

Look up Genetic Fallacy and Circumstantial Ad Hominem

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Originally posted by dj_bas wow awesome!! that's way bigger than mine

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Originally posted by Lephaid This is really a case by case thing...It's certainly not true comparing African Americans to Anglo-European Americans. In fact, pretty much the opposite of what you've said is always true, because the people in power are Anglo-European and for the most part they want Anglo-Europeans to maintain their place. Sure, there are some race sensitive benefits that African Americans have, but when you overall look at the statistics it's still blatently obvious that American society is racist. How many African Americans are CEO's or hold high positions in the government in comparison with the actual percentage of African Americans in America?

Looking at statistics does not prove, or disprove, racism at all.

You have made a really common, but quite poor, argument.

If Universities had a policy that said 'no African Americans can enrol', then that is racist, or companies had a policy of 'no African Americans can apply for the top job', then I'd say it was racist, but this is not really the case.

I do believe that it is in the interests of a country that the people holding power, such as high level politics and business, need to be representive of the society they are bossing around. And as statistics show a lack or African Americans in these positions I think the Government needs to take a keen role in offering incentives and encouragement to get people in this ethnic group in a position to apply and secure these positions.

People often don't understand the social problems that prevent most people in some of these minority groups from ever getting into the position to reach the top of the tree, and when you mention to anybody in one of these minority groups that in reality if you are good enough then you will get the job, they will be quick to outline the range of issues and problems that prevent most from ever doing so.

Its easy to get emotional on these matters because when you experience racism, disadvantage and discrimination in the flesh it tends to leave a terrible mark, and I guess its your life and you can do what you want with it, and I really admire people that break through all of that and succeed.

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Originally posted by Cal Look up Genetic Fallacy and Circumstantial Ad Hominem

I know what they mean, bro bro. There's also valid ad hominem which states that "Premises discrediting the person can exist in valid arguments, when the person being criticized is the sole source for a piece of evidence used in one of his arguments."

Maybe you should look that up some time. And the Genetic Fallacy is irrelevant here, i'm not trying to attack or approve the beliefs of anyone in order to discredit their argument.

___________________
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Originally posted by Lephaid However, if you want that race to rise in society and maintain a power similar to those of Anglo-European Americans, then you have to have some legal protections so that preferences aren't always given to Anglo-European Americans for jobs, etc.. That's all I really agree with as far as affirmative action goes, I think. Granted, the law is also partially owned by those in power, so... The bottom line is it usually doesn't change til the people in power decide they want it to for whatever reason.

I agree with the first part of what you say. There is a need for laws that ensure equality, and preferential treatment just creates artificial conditions that potentially can do more harm than good, like with hiring a less capable neurosurgeon or firefighter.

I believe with time it will even out, but not if affirmitive action continues to force treatment of people on the basis of race and sex, and not ability.

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Originally posted by dj_bas wow awesome!! that's way bigger than mine

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Originally posted by Radagast I understand and completely retract my statement...wait... Y HALLO THAR BUTTZEKZ! So which situations would you consider "fucking far from fair" then?

Oh I added the word 'fucking', aren't I just the terrible racist?

Maybe I should change my name to Satan.

Okay, you want an example. I tend to follow court cases as part of my employment and there is quite a large amount of times where a male and female are found guilty for a major crime, it may be drugs, murder, you name it. When examining court documents it is clear that often its the male that is in charge and more responsible, although there are often times where its 50-50 or even the other way around. This doesn't deter judges form imposing much more severe penalties for the male in pretty much all cases.

Now I'll probably be called sexist by you, and my comment where I used the word 'fucking' wasn't restricted to ethnic groups, so I guess my level of offensivenss could reach new sky heights, but I tend to look at that facts.

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Originally posted by Radagast I know what they mean, bro bro. There's also valid ad hominem which states that "Premises discrediting the person can exist in valid arguments, when the person being criticized is the sole source for a piece of evidence used in one of his arguments." Maybe you should look that up some time. And the Genetic Fallacy is irrelevant here.

Sure its relevant because you brought up the klan. And the kind of evidence they cite can be found everywhere, look at my police foundations post for example. I really doubt they talked about the police in Ontario Canada.

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Originally posted by dj_bas wow awesome!! that's way bigger than mine

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Originally posted by töbias Looking at statistics does not prove, or disprove, racism at all. You have made a really common, but quite poor, argument. If Universities had a policy that said 'no African Americans can enrol', then that is racist, or companies had a policy of 'no African Americans can apply for the top job', then I'd say it was racist, but this is not really the case. I do believe that it is in the interests of a country that the people holding power, such as high level politics and business, need to be representive of the society they are bossing around. And as statistics show a lack or African Americans in these positions I think the Government needs to take a keen role in offering incentives and encouragement to get people in this ethnic group in a position to apply and secure these positions. People often don't understand the social problems that prevent most people in some of these minority groups from ever getting into the position to reach the top of the tree, and when you mention to anybody in one of these minority groups that in reality if you are good enough then you will get the job, they will be quick to outline the range of issues and problems that prevent most from ever doing so. Its easy to get emotional on these matters because when you experience racism, disadvantage and discrimination in the flesh it tends to leave a terrible mark, and I guess its your life and you can do what you want with it, and I really admire people that break through all of that and succeed.

The statistics show African Americans mostly at the bottom of the food chain and Anglo-European Americans mostly at the top of the food chain. Granted that the genetics are similar enough so that both should have an equal chance at power from birth given they exist in the same country with no other circumstances, the power should be shared equally among the racial groups.

A factor must exist for things to be the reason they are today. That reason is racism. African Americans were held as animals until after the Civil War. Up until the Civil Rights movement, they were treated as inferior to Anglo-European Americans. The entirety of the reason they are where they are today is because of racism. The reason things are also not changing is also at least partially racism.

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quote:

Originally posted by Masonious you win again dude - and nice move shoving the whole i figured out how to order pizza thing in my face. i tried that 4 and a half months ago and woke up with a Taiwanese transvestite but to Ygrene it's just, "anoother day in the life, noooo biggieee".

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Originally posted by Cal Sure its relevant because you brought up the klan. And the kind of evidence they cite can be found everywhere, look at my police foundations post for example.

The fact that affirmative action is in place does not validate any belief that this is shafting the majority. There is no evidence that affirmative action displaces white people in favor of minorities. In any case of affirmative action when used to hire people for work or accept people for schools, a minority might have acquired said position even without affirmative action in place. They cite no evidence.

Unless you can find some evidence somewhere that this occurs MOST OF THE TIME. I doubt it. I mean you'd have to have some really good clairvoyance to predict that a white person would have beem accepted to a school instead of a minority put in place by affirmative action.

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

Last edited by Radagast on Jan-25-2005 at 06:31

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Originally posted by töbias Oh I added the word 'fucking', aren't I just the terrible racist?

That has nothing to do with it. I was just quoting you my man.

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Okay, you want an example. I tend to follow court cases as part of my employment and there is quite a large amount of times where a male and female are found guilty for a major crime, it may be drugs, murder, you name it. When examining court documents it is clear that often its the male that is in charge and more responsible, although there are often times where its 50-50 or even the other way around. This doesn't deter judges form imposing much more severe penalties for the male in pretty much all cases.

I was looking for a racial example. Is there a racial example where you believe something is "far from fucking fair".

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

Aw dude theres lots of evidence, theres even the term "reverse discrimination" in, was it my Human Resourses textbook? hmm not sure.

But it refers to how white males feel discriminated against because of this policy.

I dont want to go dig up links and info, its late, but just think about all those studies that came out after AAction was put in place. They all go something like this: "after an increase of 50% in the minority complement of the police force, no difference was found in the performance of the police force"

But think about how did it get a 50% increase right away? Because all those people were more qualified for the job?
Not very likely is it.

The more likely answer is that the HR department shafted the truly more capable and qualified applicants in order to get more minorities (to on board with AAction)

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Originally posted by dj_bas wow awesome!! that's way bigger than mine

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Originally posted by Lephaid The statistics show African Americans mostly at the bottom of the food chain and Anglo-European Americans mostly at the top of the food chain. Granted that the genetics are similar enough so that both should have an equal chance at power from birth given they exist in the same country with no other circumstances, the power should be shared equally among the racial groups. A factor must exist for things to be the reason they are today. That reason is racism. African Americans were held as animals until after the Civil War. Up until the Civil Rights movement, they were treated as inferior to Anglo-European Americans. The entirety of the reason they are where they are today is because of racism. The reason things are also not changing is also at least partially racism.

I would have no trouble agreeing that certain individuals in today's society are racist, and won't hire people from certain groups, and this plays a part in those statistics. But its a big call to say that today's society is racist as a whole at this point in time. Please point me out laws in your country that are racist.

You are quite right that disadvatages take a long time to balance out so things become fair. It wasn't that many years ago that Queensland Police were shooting Australian Aboriginals with guns, and the racist policies of former Governments are highly to blame for the state of the general society of this group. They need special treatment if this group will ever become a larger influential part of Australian society. Some call that special treatment unfair, but I think its justified. Although its fucking far from fair that the Government spends most of the billions attributed to Aboriginal people on the 400 levels from the top to the bottom with little actually reaching those that need it most.

I think you are confusing racism with a range of complex social issues. For example many people are quick to say that large companies are sexist because the number of female high level executives is low, and then further studies indicate that many women actually prefer other types of jobs.

And just the same with your argument that African Americans are born the same as Anglo-European Americans so there should be the same percentage of each group in all jobs and industries.

There are many other factors you need to consider, such as the demographics of each different ethnic group including financial status, the encouragement from members of their family to pursue certain careers, the influence of important people in their lives, rolemodels, exposure to drugs and alcohol, different forms of abuse, quality of schooling, etc etc.

Society as a whole is not equal nor is it equal, anybody that thinks it will ever be is either a delusional socialist, or just plain dumb, and the Government needs to ensure that they offer additional support for members of groups that are not represented in powerful positions, and the actual members of these groups are responsible as well.

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"The first stage of the great adventure has concluded happily, and here I am installed in Mexico, although I have no idea about the future" Che Guevara