because men often find them being "not-manly".
many ppl hate homosexuals (including lesbians) because they find it is not natural, it is against the laws of God. because He left things one way, and... I guess it's not me that should explain this though.

I personally have nothing against any person that might have a different sexual orientation that I do. as long as their attitude does not offend me. but then, offending can be anyone, so it's no special category I would get them in.

I hate prejudice. it stops many from seeing the real person. and it's characteristic to stupid ppl, but unfortunately it seems there are many of the kind among us. not something to laugh at unfortunately.

a relation between two ppl, being it at work/school/any time in life, should not be influenced by the sexual prefferences each have. but this would make our world a little better, and... hardly any chance.

___________________
Kultified TrancEr

Ahhh... i LOVE this. Again Trancewave, you are quoting my FIRST post... why don't you quote my last post? You basically repeated yourself to a T. Well, i'm not going to quote your first post again... I am going to quote from your last post, to answer your questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave Everytime I think I'm out they pull me back in..........

Shutup, you know you like it!

quote:

First off, I would like to formally appologize to you if my words sound overly harsh and you were offended by it. I can be sarcastic at times but believe me I never intended to attack you like the way you have percieved it.

fair enough. I wasn't offended... just didn't consider it "smart debate" by insulting another's intelligence b/c you didn't agree with them...

quote:

I have already stated my reasons why I think some of your statements are unfounded. I never ever attacked you simply because you say you didn't like gays and hate them. In fact I recall I specically said that I believe you when you say that you don't hate gays.

correct. You did say you believe me. But you did attack my original comments. This doesn't bother me so much the FACT of attacking as what you attacked with: (see below)

quote:

but I have got to say this is BY FAR the most absurd thing I have ever read! .../... Even more rubbish here These comments are just so sexist ../... You sound more beautiful and brilliant as you rant on..../... she doesn't need dumbasses like you calling her a butch.../...I won't bother to blab out anything derogative towards you as that would take me to your level.../...Your ignorance has already distorted your mind to a whole new level...

these kind of words certainly don't elicit "not being attacked" in my mind! but again, this doesn't bother me anymore... just to show you that you are wrong

quote:

You say that you have reasons to back up for the way you feel and that I don't and just call you ignorant? What?? Your above quote is in reference to a kid having same sex parents and that they will be mentally and physically tortured AND WILL turn out to be a mental case like Timothy McVeigh. I don't have as much a problem with you not liking gays as much as comments like these that you make that totally infuriates me. And it is why it has evoked such a strong response from me in the very beginning.

maybe the comment was undeserved. But i don't see how this offends you unless you fall under the above condition. Fact is, i can guarantee money (i'd be willing to bet $$ on this), that psychological studies would show that kids with same-sex parents go through more emotional abuse and mental trauma than kids with hetero parents. Granted, this trauma may be caused by the "other" kids who have "normal" parents, but i STILL bet it happens, and this is what i base my opinion on. I understand what you say about unconditional love, and in a rare instance, may agree with you. But for the most part, i still don't agree with it.

quote:

Am I the only one that sees a problem with the above quote? I've already stated why I think that statement is so unfounded. I never said that you were stupid....if you read back a little I said "your Timothy McVeigh comment was incredibly stupid". People can say stupid things.

point taken. and no, you're not the only one who thinks that way... i'm getting a lot of "angry" TA's barraging my PM box disagreeing with me in private, but i don't mind. these are my views, and in my opinion, they're not "hateful". I acknowledge that using the name "timothy mcveigh" was stupid. But its a fact he was emotionally abused by his parents (even though they were hetero)...

quote:

Here's another beauty! Your comments and views towards same sex marriages and and your take on adoption kills me as well. You say what is the harm in thinking the way you do, it's only an opinion. Well let me just say that there is a problem here. You stated clearly why you think it's wrong for kids to have same sex parents. A lot of your argument is based on the fact that there will be too many problems for the kid growing up and therefore gay couples should never have the right to adoption. I have clearly stated my views and don't want to reiterate too much of what I have said earlier. If the child is in a loving home with loving parents isn't that the most important thing regardless of the a parents sexual preference? How many heterosexual couples are totally unfit parents? We as a society is losing focus on what is really important and try so hard to 'conform' to normalcy...which to me is a lot of crock.

...... again, repeating yourself from your last reply... please stop quoting my original statement and let me hear your answers to my questions of my LAST debate...

quote:

Of course you are free to your opinions and so am I but my problem is that who are you to decide someone else's happiness here? If a gay couple wants to have a baby to be truly happy then what is the problem here?

I am no one to decide that... i don't make the decisions... i don't make the rules. i have nothing to do with them. I just stated my opinion, which has no basis on what laws get passed... this would just be like me saying (and forgive the bringing up of this debate) "who are you to decide whether a girl has to go through with a pregnancy or not? If a girl wants to make her own decision about her own pregnancy than whats the problem here?" Forgive this analogy, but if you look closely, i used all the same words except interchanging the pregnancy/homosexuality... Basically what i'm saying here is nothing you or I say affects their decisions in life, or their ability to make their decisions. And the comment of that statement (like my own pregnancy statement), has nothing to do with the discussion at hand...

quote:

Obviously the way I feel is in the minority,

trust me, you're NOT in the minority. Just a lot of people have wisely decided to stay away from this thread...

quote:

I'm glad our government don't have the same views as you do or else gay couples would not be allowed to adopt.

well i'm glad you're happy with that... i hope knowing that makes your life a lot better (and i'm not being sarcastic here, making a point).

quote:

I never ever said or remotely implied that you were trying to convert people to homophobes (where did you get that from??).

i got that from your rebuttals from my posts... all my posts (minus the original) was "defending myself" (for lack of better words) from your posts... I was not forcing my ideas down anyone, yet you were criticizing my posts and saying, in so many words, that i was wrong. I don't take this personal, don't worry... i'm just explaining where i got the "converting people to homophobes" thing...

quote:

Also I never ever wanted you to feel the same way that I do as well.

oh yeah? (see your comments below)

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave .....I just hate to see people have a Cow with others for all the wrong reasons.../.....What will happen one day if you had a baby and found out he was gay? would you love him any less than your other kids if they were straight. Gimme a break!..../....I hope that later on in your life you can look back and are more enriched in your life that you don't have to feel hostile and defensive everytime someone disagrees with you..../....Bottom line is if you had 3 experiences in the past with people hitting on you and some took it way to far, then your problem is not with gays but with those specific individuals..../...The way I see it, nobody is telling you to sleep with them. Nobody lives your life except for you and as long as you are not hurting anyone then who are you to be judging who they want to be with?.../... I just have a problem with people having issues with others simply because of their sex preference...

Again, this really doesn't have to do with anything... just answering your own questions for you...

quote:

I find that comment there very offensive. I nevered implied you were a racist or intended to lead toward that route.

You got offended because i said you called me racist indirectly? oh boy. If THAT offends you, then maybe you are not ready for debates about serious subjects my friend. Fact was, you indirectly DID call me that. If that offends you, then don't bring it up! It actually doesn't even bother me, as long as you realize it.

quote:

I responded to your original post because I believe you were truthful with what you said, and I do hold you in high regard as I felt a need to respond to your comments

yes, but you ALREADY responded to my original post. You believe i was truthful? So are you saying now i'm right? I don't understand. You felt like you had to respond to my comments? but you already did! whoa. de-ja-vu!

quote:

Maybe in the heat of the moment things may have been said that shouldn't have and are taken the wrong way again I'm sorry if you feel that I have insulted you.

i don't feel you've insulted me... you insulted yourself by attacking my intelligence when you didn't agree with me. Again, doens't bother me. I said some things too that i shouldn't have said (see: mcveigh, abortion comments), and i apologize for those. But i still carry my opinion on this matter.


-ABT-

___________________
Peace.

sorry to make a reply so soon, just saw TyBy7996's post

quote:

Originally posted by TyBy7996 Ok,I not one of abts fan, but I have to agree with everything he said. He never said he doesnt like Fags, some of you ppl need to learn to comprehend. I HATE FAGS, so what? gotta a problem with that?? there I said it, NOW WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?? hate me because i believe different than a lot of ppl in here, I just happen to have the guts to come out here and say it, and i dont give a shit about what replies i am going to get, just like i dont give a shit about those fags think of me...Fucking other guys in the ass is just disgusting, GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. and I also hate them , because everytime you go to Keys, they try to attack you, they have no respect for the straight community, so why would i have respect for them? also I hate seeing them kissing each other in front of kids, where is all the respect for kids? they sure have no respect at all, I can say it, cause i have a gay cousin, and I tell him all the time ,so i have the right to say it cuase it runs in the family. AND BSE, you must be a fag or something, if you are so worried about what ppl think. THERE you got your answer, are you happy now?

yeah, this is pretty lame. I know some homosexuals do have problem of attitude, but about respect for the kids... kissing in public is anyway rather indecent, for the sole fact a relationship should be private. the idea of "letting the world know I love" is reffering to something else... still, U might have the "guts" of saying this out loud, but U surely don't have the style, the class to do that. that's the problem (hope U will not consider I am going off-topic). because no one forces U to like (or be indifferent) to the gay community, but at least some maturity in the way U post Ur opinions, this is just common sense.

also, direct flaming is not very nice, nor generaly tolerated. but I am sure U know that... or U will after these posts.

about the thing with Ur Dream Grl... understand that love asks U to make the other happy... no matter if this does not meet Ur desire of maybe enjoying that happiness together. as U presented the problems (on a thread U opened I think and around the forums...), I more and more believe U R being selfish in this wish of being with her. understand it is time to move on. and I am sorry if U believe it is not me to say anything related to Ur problem, U might be almost right minus the fact U have told about Ur probs on the forums, therefor replies were espected, and the fact I am making a "cold" judgement of the situation; this means I do not flame U or things alike, I just present some simple idea (I ran over in my lifetime)... no geniality here, sorry!

___________________
Kultified TrancEr

damn, ther's a lot of discussion going on in here about this...i dont care, i'm not affected by gays-they dont bother me, and if they do, i remove myself from the situation...simple....does not affect me therefore i dont care....and i dont hate them i dont love them, i'm kind of indifferent...I REALLY DONT CARE FOR THEM OR WHAT THEY DO TILL STARTS AFFECTING ME

>JM<

Last edited by JM on Nov-11-2001 at 11:11

quote:

Originally posted by j_spot 1)He's better looking than I am, guess who gets the ladies? HIM 2)Dancin @ a club, somebody grabs my ass, im excited, and guess what? ITS HIM! 3)Cant check out ladies w/ him, and hes always fooling me into checkin men out w/ him. BAH!

haha, that's the funniest thing i've read in a long time!!!

i know huh, they always get the girls, huh?! what's up with that?!

>JM<

quote:

Originally posted by Spartak It can't be that much. Or is that just in the US

Actually a statistic has shown that 10 % of the U.S. population is gay, but...

..."There are three kind of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics" - Mark Twain.

I believe that, depending on your definition of being gay, that figure could be much higher. I read somewhere that every other woman have had "gay experiences" - whatever that means. And think of ancient Greece where it was common to be gay.

Trancewave & ABT: Thanks for a *very* interesting and humourous discussion. I love this kind of civilized intelligent flaming

first:
ABT: sorry I implied you're first threat incorrect, happens to the best

Second:
I must say this by far the deepest threat I've seen around here!! good thing

While I'm reading this stuff I must admit that I TEND to go along with ABT, allthough I disagree with him at some points


TRANCEWAVE; dont see this as an attack, but while I'm reading you're threats, I'm getting this idea(its kinda hard to explain, but I'm trying to make MY point of view): In you're opinion, everybody needs an equal treatment (good thing). the point is you're calling everybody who doesn't agree with you almost (mark:almost, not entirely) an racist, but you push you're ideas so much, its almost indoctrinating (hope you're familiar with the word, dunno if it excists). And indoctrination is no good thing either (caused some wars as well..).
I think that you're way of expression is a bit, mmm, a bit harsh, extreme and people might agree with you or if you're just trying to understand their opinion as well, instead of pushing yours and creating total misunderstanding.

OK, lets get back to the subject...
sorry for interrupting

greetz kolkiewolkie

___________________
Progressive

Hard = goed

ABT

quote:

Ahhh... i LOVE this. Again Trancewave, you are quoting my FIRST post

quote:

You did say you believe me. But you did attack my original comments. This doesn't bother me so much the FACT of attacking as what you attacked with

The only reason I brought up your original quote was because it was those comments that evoked a response from me in the first place, and it was how this whole situation got started, you asked in your previous post why I had such a problem with it, I thought I had explained it.

I just felt that the McVeigh reference WAS very ignorant and is an injustice to all kids with same sex parents of the world. That they are more 'likely' to be a mental case like McVeigh. That is pretty gutless to me.

By making comments like that on your original post you should know that some people will be enraged with those comments.
You made your points and I had mine. now if you feel that by me calling some of the statements that you made 'ignorant' and feel that it is a personal attack on you, then maybe it is YOU who may not ready for a serious debate. It is not an attack, but the statement displayed ignorance and I'm entitled to respond.

quote:

maybe the comment was undeserved. But i don't see how this offends you unless you fall under the above condition. Fact is, i can guarantee money (i'd be willing to bet $$ on this), that psychological studies would show that kids with same-sex parents go through more emotional abuse and mental trauma than kids with hetero parents. Granted, this trauma may be caused by the "other" kids who have "normal" parents, but i STILL bet it happens, and this is what i base my opinion on. I understand what you say about unconditional love, and in a rare instance, may agree with you. But for the most part, i still don't agree with it.

The fact that you can't see how this can offend me unless I fall under the same conditions really tells me a lot about you. (did I just insult you? hope not, sweetcheeks)
You are willing to bet money that psychological studies would prove that kids would go through emotional and mental abuse and mental trauma than kids with hetero parent....so you're telling me that you don't have any studies at hand to really back that up, and it's only your pre-percieved notion that it is more likely to happen. And that is the point I was always trying to make. You have to take every case on an individual basis.
I've worked with kids with same sex parents before in camp and they are quite "normal" and happy. Now, I'm not blind to the fact that there will be kids who would carry more of an emotional burden. It's individual cases.
This also alludes to your justification that gay adoption should therefore not be alowed, and that to me is pretty lame. To justify that kids would be less happy and have more of a burden based on your pre-percieved notion of what you THINK will happen to me is unjust.

quote:

well i'm glad you're happy with that... i hope knowing that makes your life a lot better (and i'm not being sarcastic here, making a point).

Absolutely! like I said earlier I'm glad someone with your stance in the matter don't have any political stroke but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We simply can't just brush things under a rug and say it's only an 'opinion' so why do people have problems with it. These issues should be brought to the forefront. Everyone's opinion is important and as a democratic society a lot of it determines how we live our lives. So yes, it is important.

quote:

i got that from your rebuttals from my posts... all my posts (minus the original) was "defending myself" (for lack of better words) from your posts... I was not forcing my ideas down anyone, yet you were criticizing my posts and saying, in so many words, that i was wrong. I don't take this personal, don't worry... i'm just explaining where i got the "converting people to homophobes" thing..

I gave my reasons why I criticize your post. I never said you were wrong mind you because I see a lot of what you say is in fact how our society feels as well, but it doesn't have to be this way. No worries.

quote:

point taken. and no, you're not the only one who thinks that way... i'm getting a lot of "angry" TA's barraging my PM box disagreeing with me in private, but i don't mind. these are my views, and in my opinion, they're not "hateful". I acknowledge that using the name "timothy mcveigh" was stupid. But its a fact he was emotionally abused by his parents (even though they were hetero)...

I know your opinion is not hateful and neither is mine. And you know how I hate to bring another reference to McVeigh on this (sorry, couldn't help it) , what does the fact that McVeigh was emotionally abused by his parents have to do with anything? ???
I'm just quoting you but it sounds somewhat sinister. But you've already stated earlier that kids with same sex parents would be more likely to be emotionally abused, and that is where I have a big beef with. You have nothing to substantiate your point on this, just what you 'think' will happen.

quote:

You got offended because i said you called me racist indirectly? oh boy.

I was more offended by the accusation than anything else.

quote:

Fact was, you indirectly DID call me that.

In your eyes maybe I did, but I have never intended to indirectly go that route. You came up with your own conclusion on that one. Nonetheless, I don't want to go off topic with more senseless bickering.

quote:

yes, but you ALREADY responded to my original post. You believe i was truthful? So are you saying now i'm right? I don't understand.

By me telling you I think you are truthful means that I know that you truly believe in your heart what you are saying that's all (I said that earlier). I'm NOT agreeing with you at the slightest , believe me we are on a WHOLE different wavelength.

Last edited by Trancewave on Nov-11-2001 at 17:20

so just to recap: america is full of gays, abt wants to implant a black crack whore fetus into trancewave, and bse repeated exactly what i said in response to it.

well isnt this just a hilarious waste of electricity

___________________
Fave Tune at the Moment: Mesmerizer - Taking Control

>>> Download my mix here <<< (Electro, Techno & Psy-Trance)

One of my best pals at school and university was gay, quite happy with it, I played guitar in a band with him for years, we talked about sex and that kind of thing quite openly, I knew he never fancied me and we were both totally cool with each others sexuality, but one new year's eve at this party we were both at, I was pissed out of my head walking round the house and walked in on him in the spare room bent over the dressing table and getting reamed up the ass by another guy ... try as I might I was really revolted by the whole thing, even now I just can't recall that image without being kind of squeamish. He never even saw me before I slammed the door again but I never could look at him the same way again I know my mind tells me I should really be open minded and not give a shit about that sort of thing, I really want to be more but my body just rebels against it, I'm sorry but YUUUKKK!!!

___________________
Kia's Sig-o-matic
-------------
Insert your favourite jap car here
Insert partially dressed bimbo here
Select auto placement of your little Gatecrasher lion left/right/top/bottom
----------
List your 100 top DJs / producers / clubs here
Add URL for your latest dodgy fruity loops production here

There's some real friendly (and intelligent) coversations going on here.... not!

The interesting thing i've noticed is that the word gay has become synonomous with bad. Like "such and such is gay"! or "This musik is gay!" My friends say it all the time.

___________________
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

Last edited by Orbital on Nov-11-2001 at 20:51

quote:

Originally posted by Trancewave ABT- The only reason I brought up your original quote was because it was those comments that evoked a response from me in the first place, and it was how this whole situation got started, you asked in your previous post why I had such a problem with it, I thought I had explained it.

Right. I heard you the first 2 times.

quote:

I just felt that the McVeigh reference WAS very ignorant and is an injustice to all kids with same sex parents of the world.

i've already admitted to the inappropriateness of this comment... care to make ANOTHER reference to it in your next post? And i hope by making my original comment, that all the "kids of same sex parents of the world" did not get hurt or lose any sleep... because i would not want to cause an injustice to all of them!

quote:

By making comments like that on your original post you should know that some people will be enraged with those comments. You made your points and I had mine. now if you feel that by me calling some of the statements that you made 'ignorant' and feel that it is a personal attack on you, then maybe it is YOU who may not ready for a serious debate. It is not an attack, but the statement displayed ignorance and I'm entitled to respond.

Ok, allow me to repeat myself for the third time! I was not offended... i get called "stupid" all the time here on TA. What i am saying is that everytime i ever make a good arguement on here, people come back with insulting my intelligence as a "comeback." I was just bringing this to your attention, doesn't bother me, so drop this.

quote:

The fact that you can't see how this can offend me unless I fall under the same conditions really tells me a lot about you. (did I just insult you? hope not, sweetcheeks)

Well, since you are such an 'expert' on me now, why don't you share with the rest of us what you've learned about me? (thanks for complimenting my facial features, i'm rather proud of them!)

quote:

You are willing to bet money that psychological studies would prove that kids would go through emotional and mental abuse and mental trauma than kids with hetero parent....so you're telling me that you don't have any studies at hand to really back that up, and it's only your pre-percieved notion that it is more likely to happen. And that is the point I was always trying to make.

well, i didn't work at a children's camp with same-sex-parent-kids... but i did take psychology for 2 years in college... i am by no means an "expert" in psychology, but i am not making psychological profiling statements totally unfounded... If you'd like, i could find some books for you to read on studies of children with emotional trauma. I had to read 2 books on this in one semester... *Remember the emotional trauma is not always from the parents, but also from others.... Its proven in countless studies, I just didn't feel like researching on the internet to find some for you. Again, this is not my crusade, i'm not trying to "turn" anyone, and you and i both know that neither of us is going to change each other's opinion.... My point of McVeigh suffering from Trauma was only to show what correlation my FIRST post was made from... Kids that receive more emotional trauma and abuse are more likely to lead an abnormal adulthood... its proven fact. This was proven about McVeigh's childhood in court, and i was showing this as an example of HOW an abused child can turn out. Again, apologize for the comparison, not called for..

quote:

You have to take every case on an individual basis.

true, i never said this was incorrect.

quote:

I've worked with kids with same sex parents before in camp and they are quite "normal" and happy. Now, I'm not blind to the fact that there will be kids who would carry more of an emotional burden. It's individual cases.

of course the kids will "appear normal".... Haven't you seen the billboards about untreated depression? 90% of teen suicides are from untreated depression... why is it always untreated? Because kids are excellent at disguising their sadness. I've done it before in life, and i'm SURE you have too. My point here is only to show that your statement means NOTHING in the child's contentment in life... If you are not "blind" to the fact that some kids will carry more of an emotional burden, then you are agreeing with the statement i made several posts ago...

quote:

This also alludes to your justification that gay adoption should therefore not be alowed, and that to me is pretty lame. To justify that kids would be less happy and have more of a burden based on your pre-percieved notion of what you THINK will happen to me is unjust.

My notions are more founded than yours. Not on an equality level but on psychological studies level. You also have to look at reality, TW. Not everyone in the world is so "open & nice" as you. Don't forget (and don't give the general public more credit than it deserves), that these kids would get harassed till there is no tomorrow. You know it, and i know it. Again, the stress & trauma part has been proven. You say "its not right". But where's the proof? How do we know that equality is the "right" thing here? Sometimes there are other factors you have to consider... like what would the kid want? If you ask ANY child in an adoption center whether they'd prefer opposite-sex parents or same-sex parents, i'd bet you a hundred bucks you and i both know what the answer would be.

quote:

I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We simply can't just brush things under a rug and say it's only an 'opinion' so why do people have problems with it. These issues should be brought to the forefront.

... contradicting yourself again... you're not going to lose sleep over it, but you won't stand for it either... hmmm....

quote:

I know your opinion is not hateful and neither is mine. And you know how I hate to bring another reference to McVeigh on this (sorry, couldn't help it) , what does the fact that McVeigh was emotionally abused by his parents have to do with anything? ???

If you know my opinion is not hateful, and you know i'm not trying to "spread homophobia", then why were you so "outraged" at my original post? You said yourself that you couldn't stand to see someone write that.... hey, your words.. See above for the explanation on the McVeigh post...

quote:

But you've already stated earlier that kids with same sex parents would be more likely to be emotionally abused, and that is where I have a big beef with. You have nothing to substantiate your point on this, just what you 'think' will happen.

Again, i go by what i learned in college and what you see in society. You go by what "feels right". Your cause is definitely more admirable, but mine is more truthful. What i've said has been proven. You have beef with psychological studies? hmmm....

quote:

By me telling you I think you are truthful means that I know that you truly believe in your heart what you are saying that's all (I said that earlier). I'm NOT agreeing with you at the slightest , believe me we are on a WHOLE different wavelength.

ok.

Cheers!
-ABT-

___________________
Peace.

Last edited by ABTsportsline on Nov-11-2001 at 21:45