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Originally posted by jonSun What pissed me off the most is that Michael Schiavo wouldnt let her parents or blood relatives be there when she passed on.

"the most"! What are you? A religous lunatic? There's one thing about this case which leaves me sad: that the US does not allow for euthanasia. Except for that this seems to be triumph for the free will.

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Originally posted by occrider Why? The parents have clearly stated that they would have gone against what Terri would have wanted for their own personal self gain. Do I need to bring up their court testimony once again that fully illustrates their own selfishness??? It's pretty damning testiomony so I'd be more than happy to repost it if you're unwilling to search for it. They've clearly made every attempt to slander Michael with baseless accusations that every court has since rejected. What exactly has Michael done that is reprehensive? I mean shit, the parents have even sold the mailing list they've maintained in order to make a profit. Where is the outcry about their amorality??? Their moral intransigence is justified because the ends trumps the means regardless of all other considerations??? Hypocrisy and principle have become strange bedfellows in our time.

I don't care what sort of court testimony you want to quote. Depriving a family of being at the bedside of their daugher when she is dying, regardless of what you think their intentions are(unless you mean to suggest that they didn't love their own daughter), and regardless of how ugly the legal battle has been--is simply classless. Furthermore, not even allowing them to attend her funeral service only demonstrates this more. Oh gosh, her parents wanted to keep her alive. Is it so hard to believe that her parents' natural instinct was to fight for the life of their child? To try to protect her at all costs? Maybe they were wrong based on scientific evidence to fight for a lost cause, but they were certainly not wrong morally to fight for the life of their child to the end. That is what parents do, and it's hard to fault them for that in my book.

The guy says he wants to avoid a media circus, yet he has been just as instrumental in creating it as anyone else. Though dost protest too much, I'm afraid.

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't care what sort of court testimony you want to quote. Depriving a family of being at the bedside of their daugher when she is dying, regardless of what you think their intentions are(unless you mean to suggest that they didn't love their own daughter), and regardless of how ugly the legal battle has been--is simply classless. Furthermore, not even allowing them to attend her funeral service only demonstrates this more. Oh gosh, her parents wanted to keep her alive. Is it so hard to believe that her parents' natural instinct was to fight for the life of their child? To try to protect her at all costs? Maybe they were wrong based on scientific evidence to fight for a lost cause, but they were certainly not wrong morally to fight for the life of their child to the end. That is what parents do, and it's hard to fault them for that in my book.

But their intentions weren't wrong from a scientific standpoint in fighting to keep her alive alone. Their intentions were wrong from a moral standpoint as well since they clearly stated that their actions were not governed by any of Terri's desires but their own selfish interests. In other words, they have no concern whatsoever with what Terri wanted, their actions are solely governed by what they want. And for that, I cannot help but fault them for their actions.

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The guy says he wants to avoid a media circus, yet he has been just as instrumental in creating it as anyone else. Though dost protest too much, I'm afraid.

The man is simply trying to execute his wife's desires. The only people propogating a media circus are the parents who refuse to adhere to the spousal rights and the legal findings of this case. If they hadn't brought this up to every single appeals court in the country, along with state and federal legislatures this issue would have been dead in the 90's without any media fanfare. What should Michael's desire to avoid a media circus trump his wife's right and desire to cease treatment and simply acquiesce to the parent's demands? Would you want your wife to simply give up and ignore your desires should the case become a blown out of proportion?

I can completely understand Michael's frustrations and anger towards the parents. Their actions have been completely governed by self-interest as opposed to Terri's interests, and they've slandered him in every possible respect. In a similar situation, I might do the very same thing.

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Originally posted by occrider The man is simply trying to execute his wife's desires. The only people propogating a media circus are the parents who refuse to adhere to the spousal rights and the legal findings of this case. If they hadn't brought this up to every single appeals court in the country, along with state and federal legislatures this issue would have been dead in the 90's without any media fanfare. What should Michael's desire to avoid a media circus trump his wife's right and desire to cease treatment and simply acquiesce to the parent's demands? Would you want your wife to simply give up and ignore your desires should the case become a blown out of proportion?

I don't think Michael is any more or less guilty/innocent than the parents in this. I'm pretty sure he wants Terri out of the picture so he can move on with his life with his new lady friend and children. I believe that he loves the woman the he saw 15 years ago. He clearly moved on a long time ago.

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't think Michael is any more or less guilty/innocent than the parents in this. I'm pretty sure he wants Terri out of the picture so he can move on with his life with his new lady friend and children. I believe that he loves the woman the he saw 15 years ago. He clearly moved on a long time ago.

Well despite all the evidence to the contrary that was dug up by independant court agents for the trials, if he simply wants her out of the picture, he sure has a funny way of showing it. Logic would dictate him not spending all his money to fight the Schindlers, him not offering to donate whatever money that's left ($40,000 last I heard) to charity, or him accepting the multi-million dollar offers to simply drop the case and let Terri's parents take care of her. Strangely enough, the only thing I can think of that would dictate such irrational behaviour is a genuine concern for what Terri would have wanted.

I mean think about it, Michael has everything to gain by simply giving up. Money, death threats against him and his family, he doesn't have to care for a vegetable, etc. Yet he hasn't ... that demonstrates to me that the only party he's concerned with is Terri. Meanwhile, the bumbling parents have fully admitted that they could care less what Terri would have wanted ... they only care about their own selfish interests. And doing things like profiting off of this political fiasco (I read a good article about their fundraising efforts and how much money they were bringing in, along with them selling their email lists ... coincidentally the only group standing up for Michael is the ACLU which only covered the costs of a few of the appeals, I believe his lawyers are pro-bono at this point) only discredits them even more. So when I take out my moral compass to examine the case, I'm sorry but the parents come out way way below (or would it be south?) Michael.

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Originally posted by occrider Well despite all the evidence to the contrary that was dug up by independant court agents for the trials, if he simply wants her out of the picture, he sure has a funny way of showing it. Logic would dictate him not spending all his money to fight the Schindlers, him not offering to donate whatever money that's left ($40,000 last I heard) to charity, or him accepting the multi-million dollar offers to simply drop the case and let Terri's parents take care of her. Strangely enough, the only thing I can think of that would dictate such irrational behaviour is a genuine concern for what Terri would have wanted. I mean think about it, Michael has everything to gain by simply giving up. Money, death threats against him and his family, he doesn't have to care for a vegetable, etc. Yet he hasn't ... that demonstrates to me that the only party he's concerned with is Terri. Meanwhile, the bumbling parents have fully admitted that they could care less what Terri would have wanted ... they only care about their own selfish interests. And doing things like profiting off of this political fiasco (I read a good article about their fundraising efforts and how much money they were bringing in, along with them selling their email lists ... coincidentally the only group standing up for Michael is the ACLU which only covered the costs of a few of the appeals, I believe his lawyers are pro-bono at this point) only discredits them even more. So when I take out my moral compass to examine the case, I'm sorry but the parents come out way way below (or would it be south?) Michael.

Of course, then he would be exposed for what he is. As I said, he doth protest too much.

It would be a lot easier for Michael Jackson to simply admit he likes to buttfuck little boys, but he'd much rather pay them hundreds of millions of dollars to protect his fragile public image/reputation.

I'm still wondering why this specific case gets the limelight. Thousands of cases like this have occurred over the years where people have no living will and families disagree with each other all the time about what the outcome should be. I worked doing social work in a nursing home for a couple years and all these issues were commonplace. Other than the substantially greater litigation than normal, what made this case require the attention of Congress, the President and the media? Sure there were some greater issues that people debated because of the attention, but people "starve and dehydrate to death" in hospice every single day, including a lot of other people in that specific hospice that those few protesters getting their 15 minutes of fame ignored, not to mention there are much bigger issues to handle if people like DeLay, Frist & Santorum really wanted to help create a "culture of life." Say what you want about the decisions of the courts, who have the right to do what they did under the Constitution, but I'd guarantee the woman wouldn't have wanted her image in that condition, CT scans and doctors' opinions paraded around cable TV and newspapers. Let it be known if I drink too much Guinness tonight at the company party and have an accident with no shot at recovering, I do not want to be on Larry King.

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Originally posted by Shakka Of course, then he would be exposed for what he is. As I said, he doth protest too much. It would be a lot easier for Michael Jackson to simply admit he likes to buttfuck little boys, but he'd much rather pay them hundreds of millions of dollars to protect his fragile public image/reputation.

Hmmm I'm not sure that I buy into that much at all. Usually twats don't mind if other people think that they're twats if they stand to gain all things considered. As it stands now, Michael is pretty much hated by a ton of people, half of them believe in the slanderous lies the Schindler's made, and to top it off he's poor. Might as well have settled the issue quitely when he was offered the enormous sum of money and when the issue wasn't so publicized ... people would have quickly forgotten the issue.

Jackson is somewhat of a different example because he stands to go to jail and would lose millions due to reputational damage if he simply confessed.

There's simply no convincing arguments that prove Michael is a slime bag. Quite the contrary nearly every peice of evidence and logic points in the other direction.

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Originally posted by occrider There's simply no convincing arguments that prove Michael is a slime bag. Quite the contrary nearly every peice of evidence and logic points in the other direction.

Well, except for the fact that he abandoned his vows of marriage to sire 2 children with another woman while his wife was still alive(regardless of her state of being). "In sickness and in health". I realize you are not married, but it is a pretty serious committment for those who take it seriously. However, this debate would be a subjective one, so you will have to decide for yourself if you think those actions were just or not. Personally, I take serious issue with it.

Granted, I'm not going to put him in the same league as Scott Peterson, but IMO he threw his commitment to his wife by the wayside and gave up on her long ago.

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Originally posted by Shakka Well, except for the fact that he abandoned his vows of marriage to sire 2 children with another woman while his wife was still alive(regardless of her state of being). "In sickness and in health". I realize you are not married, but it is a pretty serious committment for those who take it seriously. However, this debate would be a subjective one, so you will have to decide for yourself if you think those actions were just or not. Personally, I take serious issue with it. Granted, I'm not going to put him in the same league as Scott Peterson, but IMO he threw his commitment to his wife by the wayside and gave up on her long ago.

Gave up his committment to his wife a long time ago? The man spent more than 5000 hours caring for his wife in the first 5 years alone according to the Wolfson report. The guy even trained as a nurse to care for her. Terri has never had a case of decubitus ulcers (bed sores) which means she's been moved at least once every 4 hours. Instead of putting all the money from the malpractice settlement into a trust for her care he should have simply gone on a buying binge if he truly "gave up" on her. So maybe the guy wanted to have kids while he was still young, you can't fault him for wanting to father children before it became too late. I think that he's more than lived up to the "in sickness and health" clause of the marriage contract. If he truly "gave up" the far easier option would have been to simply ignore Terri's desires, give her up to the parents, and gotten a divorce ... and millions in the process.

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Originally posted by occrider Gave up his committment to his wife a long time ago? The man spent more than 5000 hours caring for his wife in the first 5 years alone according to the Wolfson report. The guy even trained as a nurse to care for her. Terri has never had a case of decubitus ulcers (bed sores) which means she's been moved at least once every 4 hours. Instead of putting all the money from the malpractice settlement into a trust for her care he should have simply gone on a buying binge if he truly "gave up" on her. So maybe the guy wanted to have kids while he was still young, you can't fault him for wanting to father children before it became too late. I think that he's more than lived up to the "in sickness and health" clause of the marriage contract. If he truly "gave up" the far easier option would have been to simply ignore Terri's desires, give her up to the parents, and gotten a divorce ... and millions in the process.

Tomato Tomotto

It's amazing how this issue has flipped what I thought to be some long-time beliefs. They even got Jesse Jackson for chrissakes. Eesh.

I thought this was interesting.

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Who Will Remember Terri? By JAMES TARANTO April 1, 2005; Page A10 What lasting effect will the Terri Schiavo saga have on American politics? Probably not much. However intense the emotions of the past two weeks, for most voters they're sure to prove fleeting. But there's one important exception: disabled Americans. Some of the most impassioned arguments against killing Terri Schiavo came from profoundly handicapped people: • Mary Johnson, left-leaning editor of Ragged Edge magazine: "There isn't a single disability rights activist I've heard from . . . who isn't afraid that this will make liberals hate them even more than they now do." • Joe Ford, a Harvard undergraduate with severe cerebral palsy: "Like many others with disabilities, I believe that the American public, to one degree or another, holds that disabled people are better off dead. To put it in a simpler way, many Americans are bigots. A close examination of the facts of the Schiavo case reveals not a case of difficult decisions but a basic test of this country's decency." • Eleanor Smith, a self-described liberal agnostic lesbian, whose childhood bout with polio left her confined to a wheelchair: "At this point I would rather have a right-wing Christian decide my fate than an ACLU member." Ms. Smith protested last week outside the hospice where Mrs. Schiavo lay dehydrating and starving. Surveys of disabled Americans suggest a strong GOP tilt. According to the National Organization on Disability, Al Gore outpolled George W. Bush among disabled Americans, 56% to 38%, but four years later Mr. Bush beat John Kerry, 52.5% to 46% -- a 24.5-point shift. As late as August, Mr. Kerry had a 10-point lead, which vanished by September, coinciding with the Florida Supreme Court's striking down "Terri's law." Polls last month suggested that most Americans favored Mrs. Schiavo's death. It was natural for an able-bodied person to think: I wouldn't want to live like that. But someone who is disabled and abjectly dependent on others was more apt to be chilled by the talk of her "poor quality of life" and to think: I wouldn't want to be killed like that. Liberalism once championed the interests of society's most vulnerable members. Today it increasingly champions their "right to die." No one should be surprised if this affects their decisions as they exercise their right to vote.

If I had Terri Schiavo's parents, i wouldn't want them by my deathbed when I pass on. I suspect Terri herself wouldn't have wanted them around either. Scumbags.