quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Arbiter having read your responce to the worst thing you've done thread, I recon all that stuff about not caring about what people think or needing them or whatever is pretty weak. Why would you care what happened to that girl if you were only bounded by reason? You were exposing yourself to risk by doing it.

You seem to misunderstand. I never made the claim that I don't care what other people think. I do, I simply don't base my actions around it. Additionally, while it is true that I don't need anyone, I fail to see the relevance of my actions in that particular scenario to that assertion. The basis for my actions with regard to the individual in question was reason.

Because I was responsible for bringing her into our organization, I was indirectly responsible for her actions as part of our organization as well. As a result, if someone had to be put at risk in order to ensure justice, I was the most rational candidate.

Furthermore, as I had previously made the claim that those who were disloyal would be subject to punishment, if I were to fail to back up those threats with action, then my credibility among friends and enemies alike would be damaged.

You know you really almost make it sound resonable to fuck up someones academic if not entire life to save face with your friends.

I've seriously lost a great deal of respect for you (which I had alot of actually) on this one, and all this "not needing anyone else" "act on no emotions" stuff too. Seems alot of talk, as lovely as the talk is...

Calling someone a traitor for pulling out of being involved with the type of people who would do that seems smart in my opinion. The only dumb thing she did was get involved in the first place.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Arbiter having read your responce to the worst thing you've done thread,

I usually consider myself pretty tough, but this thread really shocked me. Maybe it's because I have spend too long out of COR (and kindergarten), but it seems to me that kids have grown extremely vicious nowadays. Not only Arbiter's story (which is told with impressive cynicism) but some of the other stories as well, indicate to me that something is terribly wrong with the way US kids behave. I hope that COR is a non-representative sample, because it will be hard to maintain a functioning society with individuals who push each other to suicide for fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish I've seriously lost a great deal of respect for you (which I had alot of actually) on this one

Considering what has been written, I guess he doesn't care about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish You know you really almost make it sound resonable to fuck up someones academic if not entire life to save face with your friends. I've seriously lost a great deal of respect for you (which I had alot of actually) on this one, and all this "not needing anyone else" "act on no emotions" stuff too. Seems alot of talk, as lovely as the talk is... Calling someone a traitor for pulling out of being involved with the type of people who would do that seems smart in my opinion. The only dumb thing she did was get involved in the first place.

You are of course entitled to your opinions, although given the low quality of your inferences I can't see why I ought to be particularly inclined to attribute much worth to them.

If you wish to call my actions savage, cruel, or merciless I don't disagree with you. That is precisely why I categorized them as the "most terrible" thing I've ever done to someone. That is precisely how I treat those people who I consider enemies - who pose a threat to my personal integrity, honor, and my objectives. It is only rational to terminate such a threat with extreme malice, not only to neutralize its ability to continue to pose a threat but also to provide an example for other potential enemies to consider before they choose make obstacles of themselves. I think it is precisely the emotionlessness of this behavior that you find most objectionable. It is curious, therefore, that you would attempt to categorize it as emotional - although not surprising that you wouldn't support such a conclusion with any evidence whatsoever.

Unwarranted sympathies aside, she was by definition a traitor. She had made a conscious commitment of loyalty to a group of other individuals and chose to renege on her commitment without seeking any type of mutually acceptable resolution whatsoever. As a result, a group of people who had reasonably been led to believe she would assist them were unable to complete their objective. There is no question that this meets the definition of the term traitor.

You can call into question the "low quality of my inferences" all you like but you still sound like a nutter to me.

As for saying your actions were "savage, cruel, or merciless" I'm sure you'd like that it'd make you feel strong and not weak which is what I think you fear. I feel sorry for someone who gets to that stage.

Critise me or my opinions if you like I don't care, I don't think I can give what you say any real credence anymore atleast on this.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish You can call into question the "low quality of my inferences" all you like but you still sound like a nutter to me. As for saying your actions were "savage, cruel, or merciless" I'm sure you'd like that it'd make you feel strong and not weak which is what I think you fear. I feel sorry for someone who gets to that stage. Critise me or my opinions if you like I don't care, I don't think I can give what you say any real credence anymore atleast on this.

Well since you've invited me to criticize you if I like:

I think you're a boring, predictable creature weakly lashing out at something you can't understand. It's laughable for you to even speak about credence, given that while I freely provide justification and reasoning for all my assertions you spout incoherent claims and provide no support or justification whatsoever.

And although I must confess that your silly ramblings have provided me with some amusement, I'm afraid that you are indeed a case study for the type of mental weakness I have so much contempt for.

I'm glad my mental weakness is providing you with some amusement.



Yep everyone who knows me comments on my amusing mental weakness.

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

Once she had graduated or completely stopped associating with you, wouldn't she stop being a threat? Besides, she just walked away, it's not like she had ratted you or anything. She was not a traitor - she was a "coward", if you will and such "cowardness" wouldn't be a threat because if she would most likely be enough of a "coward" not to do anything against you... not to mention that, as far as you've told us, the reason why she did so remains unknown. Wasn't damaging her relationship and her school life a bit bang out of order? Couldn't it be related to the fact she had slept with you in spite of being commited, which may trigger a harsher behaviour?

Understanding you is something that's taught me a lot but this time, I'm quite puzzled.

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Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

Last edited by Lira on Apr-10-2005 at 01:26

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well since you've invited me to criticize you if I like: I think you're a boring, predictable creature weakly lashing out at something you can't understand. It's laughable for you to even speak about credence, given that while I freely provide justification and reasoning for all my assertions you spout incoherent claims and provide no support or justification whatsoever. And although I must confess that your silly ramblings have provided me with some amusement, I'm afraid that you are indeed a case study for the type of mental weakness I have so much contempt for.

Aw yes...you provide justification for your actions and reasoning to go with it,as to why you must at all costs it seems,protect your honour and integrity and deal with any threats to yourself with extreme malice and you care little for the fact that the individual concerned may have committed suicide later in her life....and you obviously know how this sounds to other people...it sounds cold and calculated....and then you go on about other individuals being boring and predictable with a mental weakness...because they put open to question your reasoning...and of course you have contempt for them also...perfectly rational of course....except for one thing....it exposes you probably more than you would like to people who read these forums...and these same people will form ophinions about you...some of which you obviously cant handle...as for my ophinion of you...cold calculating c**t probably comes quickest to mind....but no doubt i am probably weak also in your ophinion............

Arbiter, you're a pretty typical male in the sense that your attitude and views are highly influenced by the whole i'm-completely-independend-don't-need-anyone macho bullshit. And as a reslut, you're cruel, insecure and afraid of truly caring about anyone else. You really need to grow out of it unless you want to be a bitter old lonely man.

Man, I don't know why you guys are giving Arbiter such a hard time. Mofo is on top of his game on this one. This thread is making me Randy! So many differences becoming apparent, and at so many levels. On one side, Arbiter believes in the individual. He has obviously done some soul searching in his time to find out who he is and what he values in rank order.

Dervish, the fatal flaw, I think, going way back to some original reasoning talking about sociology class and having a Coke, etc., is that you assume everybody behaves a certain way because you likely fall into that group of people. Not surprisingly, when you said Arbiter probably drank Coke, he replied the he drinks what he likes. He is not led around by the yoke of the media that you believe is pervasively controlling us all.

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of males who are affected one way or another by the media(and the metrosexual example was downright histarical IMO). On several levels one could compare this to leaders vs. followers, security vs. insecurity, socialism vs. capitalism, etc. There are those who turn to the media to find out what's hip and tin turn, the media feeds off of these people to capture more attention to shape public opinion.

And just because a person believes and lives for the individual doesn't mean that they are a hermit that doesn't have and/or value friends. On the contrary, and as Arbiter pointed out, we are likely much more selective in picking our friends because we seek them out for who they are, not what they are.

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, I just finally read through a good part of this thread and wanted to say that I side with Arbiter on this issue.

However, as I mentioned, that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of men affected by the media other than the ones watching Queer Eye to find out how to be more palatable to society.

Back to the original question...how has the media's portrayal of masculinity negatively affect the male population.

I guess a lot of that would depend on which specific portrayal and what time period. The media is a dynamically changing beast. Images of masculinity have changed with the times. Currently, I'd actually have to agree that the media has been pushing some what of a metrosexual acceptance, softening of the male agenda lately. Does this have anything to do with the pervasiveness of gay and lesbian politics and the gay marriage ban issue? I'm sure they're connected in some way or another.

At other times the media has pushed different images of masculinity. In the 90's, the PC movement was probably a big influence on masculinity in the media, etc, etc. Probably best to create something absurdly far fetched and somehow tie it to the media and big corporations. If nothing else, your professor will be amused.

Shakka, I think Arbiter is being given a hard time, not because of his belief in and adherence to individualism (which I personally admire), but because of the actions he took in order to get revenge on the hapless girl.
Personally, I've never known Arbiter well enough to think of him as a friend, but has respected his excellent reasoning abilities for quite some time. That respect is still there (may even have increased), but today I got to know enough about him to never want to be his friend. I couldn't be close to someone I knew would stop at nothing to destroy my life if I fucked up.
EDIT: Of course Arbiter doesn't care about this last paragraph, I included it as a clarification in case my last post was seen as one of the posts that "gave Arbiter a hard time".

Last edited by trancaholic on Apr-10-2005 at 03:57