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zig
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Dublin,Ireland
denny_shibby

quote:
Standard of living and past growth have propelled the United States past Europe so much. And all those piece of crap social programs in Europe have done nothing to help their society or there poor in comparison to a country like the U.S.


Ok so figure this one out then if you are so sure.....

Im going to post 2 links plus text (the text relates to Ireland..a European country btw) it gives the average wage of the origional 15 member states of the EU and also gives Ireland for the year 2004..the report is written by The US Department of State...so no bias can be shown in this particular situation as these are not European figures.
The second link is from the US Department of Labour website (the most up to date figures they have are from 2001-2002)

You should probably read the whole report about Ireland...just to convince yourself how backward and poor we are by US standards...



Ireland Report and wage rates......Link

US wage rates........Link

And the appropriate text from the first report.....

quote:
Unemployment, as of late 2004, stood at 4.3 percent, suggesting that the economy is as close to full employment as possible. Inflation in the services sector partly reflects tightening in the labor market, upon which the sector is particularly dependent. Aveerage annual compensation in Ireland in 2004 grew by over 4 percent to euro 38,140, compared to euro 34,630, the average wage in the original 15 EU Member States. Between 1998 and 2003, compensation per employee had increased by 37.1 percent, compared with 8.7 percent in Germany over the same period. The pay terms of the current national wage agreement, "Sustaining Progress," which provide for wage increases of 5.5 percent over 18 months, are relatively moderate compared with previous agreements. Wage pressures in 2005, however, are expected to remain strong, particularly in the private services sector, where employment growth likely will continue to be robust.


The point of highlighting the above is simply to show the wage rates...so if we now take all the figures and use an appropriate exchange rate for the Euro vs The Dollar (im useing 1.29 as the Dollar rate per Euro) and add up the figures you get this......

Average American wage in Dollars $36,764

Average European wage in Dollars $44,672

The figure im useing for the European average wage is not the Irish one as that is even higher than the European average......

So these are the figures as published by your own government...

So how do you figure this out given that we run all these "crap social programmes" and are poor by US standards in Europe..yet it would appear that the average middle class European is auctually richer than his US peer.

Old Post Apr-17-2005 02:03  Ireland
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wolverine16
Pilgrim Pete



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Rush Limbaugh a/k/a denny_shibby
I really knew when I got into this that I wasn't going to convince really any of you leftists defact to the other side, but I decided to give it a shot anyway...


Haha, really great attempt, considering all you did is make unfounded generalizations. Ann Coulter has been unsuccessful using the same rhetoric for many years.

quote:

Because of Hillary releasing documents to the press with regards to Howard Dean trying to get Clinton to go to war in Iraq in the late 90s right before the primaries


What are you talking about? Howard Dean, as Governor of the tiny state of Vermont, was personally advising Clinton in matters of foreign policy and telling him to attack Iraq? Did he want to boost sales of Vermont Teddy Bears by providing them to Iraqi children? Couldn't locate any press releases on this, even from Drudge.

quote:

Since 1973, the bottom fifth of families have seen their income... Yet again a liberal uses facts that are completely worthless.


The bottom 20% of the country seeing their income fall over the past 32 years and another 20% has seen no growth at all are worthless statistics?

I suppose by your logic that wounded veterans will do much better since spending was cut for VA programs?


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Old Post Apr-17-2005 18:46  United States
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Capitalizt
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2005
Location: USA
..

quote:
[i]The bottom 20% of the country seeing their income fall over the past 32 years and another 20% has seen no growth at all are worthless statistics?


The problem with this argument is that you believe that same people have occupied the bottom income quintile for 20 years in a row. Studies have shown that this is complete NONSENSE. The vast majority of those in the bottom income group do NOT remain there for more than a decade, and certainly not for two. I believe reading in fact that over any recent 10-year period, a greater number of the "poor" cited in your stats actually make it to the TOP bracket than remain in the bottom. We have great income mobility in this country, and this makes most of these "inequality" arguments fallacious.

Old Post Apr-17-2005 19:57  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Dammit, we need more of these programs. We need to dictate charity on society. We will get government to wield its mighty monopoly on force and force those evil rich to fork over a larger dollar amount than we ask the average man to fork over, to help out someone less fortunate than he. Charity is great, but it's not something you can govern.


That's why some of the most powerful Fabian Socialist ideologues in our country have set up non-profit foundations such as the Ford, Rockefeller, Guggenheim, Carnegie, and other such foundations and/or endowments.

If you do a little research on the Reese Committee's Investigation in the 50's you will surely get a clearer picture. Of particular interest is a video of Norman Dodd, as interviewed by G. Edward Griffin in 1982.

(If someone can host it I would be more than happy to upload)


Here's a snippet from the transcript:
quote:


Griffin:

Can you tell us what the Reece Committee was attempting to do?


Dodd:

Yes, I can tell you. It was operating and carrying out instructions embodied in a Resolution passed by the House of Representatives, which was to investigate the activities of foundations as to whether or not these activities could justifiably be labeled “un-American” -- without, I might add, defining what they meant by “un-American.” That was the Resolution and the committee had, then, the task of selecting a counsel, and the counsel, in turn, had the task of selecting a staff; and, he had to have somebody who would direct the work of that staff, and that was what they meant by the “Director of Research. “



Griffin:

What were some of the details, the specifics, of what you told the committee at that time?



Dodd:

Well, Mr. Griffin, in that report, I specifically -- number one -- defined what was, to us, meant by the phrase “un-American.” And, we defined that, in our way, as being a determination to effect changes in the country by un-Constitutional means.


We have plenty of Constitutional procedures, assuming that we wished to effect a change in the form of government, and that sort of thing. And therefore, any effort in that direction, which did not avail itself of the procedures authorized by the Constitution, could be justifiably called “un-American.” That was the start of educating them, up to that particular point. The next thing was to educate them as to the effect on the country, as a whole, of the activities of large, endowed foundations over the then past forty years.



Griffin:

What was that effect, Sir?



Dodd:

That affect was to orient our educational system away from support of the principles embodied in the Declaration of Independence, and implemented in the Constitution; and to educate them over to the idea that the task now was to effect an orientation of education away from these briefly stated principles and self-evident truths.


And, that’s what had been the effect of the wealth which constituted the endowments of those foundations -– foundations that had been in existence over the largest portion of the span of fifty years -- and holding them responsible for this change. What we were able to bring forward was -- what we had uncovered was -- the determination of these large endowed foundations, through their trustees, actually to get control over the content of American education.



Griffin:

There is quite a bit of publicity given to your conversation with Rowan Gaither. Will you please tell us who he was, and what was that conversation you had with him?



Dodd:

Rowan Gaither was, at that time, President of the Ford Foundation. Mr. Gaither had sent for me, when I found it convenient to be in New York. He asked me to call upon him at his office, which I did.


Upon arrival, after a few amenities, Mr. Gaither said, "Mr. Dodd, we have asked you to come up here today, because we thought that, possibly, off the record, you would tell us why the Congress is interested in the activities of foundations such as ourselves."


And, before I could think of how I would reply to that statement, Mr. Gaither then went on, and voluntarily stated, "Mr. Dodd, all of us who have a hand in the making of policies here, have had experience either with the OSS during the war, or with European economic administration after the war. We have had experience operating under directives. The directives emanate, and did emanate, from the White House. Now, we still operate under just such directives. Would you like to know what the substance of these directives is?"


I said, “Yes, Mr. Gaither, I would like very much to know.” Whereupon, he made this statement to me, "Mr. Dodd, we are here to operate in response to similar directives, the substance of which is that we shall use our grant-making power so to alter life in the United States, that it can be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union."



Look up:
Hearings, U.S. Congress, House of Representatives, Special Committee to investigate Tax-exempt Foundations and Comparable Organizations, 83rd Congress, second session, 1954; William H. MecLhany 11--The Tax Exempt Foundation



http://100777.com/node/545

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/regionalism/dodd.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/iserbyt/iserbyt9.htm

Old Post Apr-17-2005 20:13  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by denny_shibby
I really knew when I got into this that I wasn't going to convince really any of you leftists defact to the other side, but I decided to give it a shot anyway.


You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the neo-conservatives that currently hold positions of power within our government are in all reality "leftists" following the ideologies of Leo Strauss.

Rah, rah, rah!!! Go team, GO!!!

(Even though you don't appear to know who you're REALLY rooting for in this dirty little game called politics)

Old Post Apr-17-2005 20:25  United States
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wolverine16
Pilgrim Pete



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago, USA
Re: ..

quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
The problem with this argument is that you believe that same people have occupied the bottom income quintile for 20 years in a row. Studies have shown that this is complete NONSENSE. The vast majority of those in the bottom income group do NOT remain there for more than a decade, and certainly not for two. I believe reading in fact that over any recent 10-year period, a greater number of the "poor" cited in your stats actually make it to the TOP bracket than remain in the bottom. We have great income mobility in this country, and this makes most of these "inequality" arguments fallacious.


I'm not suggesting that the same people constitute the lowest 20% for decades, though a significant number of people certainly do. I've mentioned several times that most of these programs act primarily as a safety net and that the bankruptcy statistics show people fall on hard times for periods. That number still says though that 20% of the country has a net loss over that period of time. If you have credible evidence that says over a 10 year period more people end up in the highest tax bracket than stay in the lowest, i would like to see it.


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Old Post Apr-17-2005 20:26  United States
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denny_shibby
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: May 2004
Location:

You see as I thought you liberals can't understand a simple argument. Why? You are liberals. You don't get it wages don't mean shit unless you compare prices to wages. Okay first before you can even compare the wages between Europe and U.S. you have to use AFTER TAX INCOME. Then I want you to add up how much you guys spend on gas , a flat, food, a piece of shit car, etc. then see how much you guys got. Keeping that all in mind there is one way to best figure out what country has better standards of living. Whos middle class spends the most on luxurys after that spending.

I've been to Ireland and the UK and my sister studied abroad in Lancaster, England trust me when I say we are kicking your ass. Don't get me wrong I think Ireland is a beautiful country. And I think the people there are some of the nicest people I have met on a vacation. I live in a middle class to upper middle class town and let me say that about 80 percent of my school goes on at least one vacation to Florida, Mexico, California, etc. a year. Everybody attending my school has a relatively new computer with internet. 98 percent of everybody over 16 in my school also has there own car. I can keep on going and these are just the easily seen things. How long have you guys spent in the U.S. This whole argument is given for one reason, wages don't mean shit if you don't give a comprehensive analysis of living costs. Yeah you can have an average wages of $200,000 but if a loaf of bread is $100 that don't mean shit.

Old Post Apr-18-2005 00:56  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by denny_shibby
You see as I thought you liberals can't understand a simple argument. Why? You are liberals.


I think that's exactly where you're making your biggest mistake. You're only looking at the picture as though it were black and white when in fact we live in a world full of color. You're taking 'ad hominem' to the next level and are attacking people for what you yourself are failing to understand.

When you get out of high school and into the real world perhaps you will see that there are many degrees that constitute the political spectrum, not just Liberal / Conservative.

Maybe in your next post you can further touch upon the effects of inflation, inflation vs wages, and perhaps you could even delve into the effects of the Phillips Curve, underemployment, etc.

Thanks in advance!

Old Post Apr-18-2005 01:41  United States
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denny_shibby
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: May 2004
Location:

Yes there are many different political parties in the spectrum, but what you don't understand is that liberal and conservative are adjectives used to describe the party as pushing more towards command economy(i.e. progressive taxes, welfare state, etc.) conservative is pushing towards more market economy. Now there are many different issues that pertain to a party--war, rights, etc., and I admit that I narrowly focus on economic issues when I cover liberal and conservative and you have to understand that when I argue this shit.

Old Post Apr-18-2005 01:56  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by denny_shibby
Yes there are many different political parties in the spectrum, but what you don't understand is that liberal and conservative are adjectives used to describe the party as pushing more towards command economy(i.e. progressive taxes, welfare state, etc.) conservative is pushing towards more market economy. Now there are many different issues that pertain to a party--war, rights, etc., and I admit that I narrowly focus on economic issues when I cover liberal and conservative and you have to understand that when I argue this shit.


So do you actually believe that Bush & Co. have been fiscally conservative during the past few years? How would you explain all of the pork-barrel and deficit spending that's occurred throughout the course of this administration?

http://www.progress.org/tcs62.htm

Sure, these guys may call themselves Conservatives but they really seem to lack any real knowledge of how to maintain a conservative budget. Don't you find that somewhat ironic?

Old Post Apr-18-2005 02:12  United States
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denny_shibby
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: May 2004
Location:

Phillips curve, now I pictured right away that you were talking about the so called inverse inflation and wages curve, but since I wasn't positive on the name I double-checked and I was right. Phillips curve is false. Just figures you could pick out any economic law or principle out there and you choose an old Keynesian theory that was proven wrong in the 1970s. According to that theory stagflation is impossible because lower unemployment = high inflation, and vise versa. The reason why Keynesians came up with this theory was because governments were running the economies where the government would debt spend and print money(inflation-expanding money supply and high interest rates) to pay for government jobs(lower unemployment). Then you get the opposite idea. The fact is that they were just taking money from the private sector via inflation or directly borrowing, creating overall lower wages in respect to prices, to redispence to their employees. Its also strange that you bring up that theory since you consider yourself a libertarian the backbone party of Friedman economics. Milton Friedman being the Einstien of Economics. Him and his followers physically wrote the proofs that became economic law(indisputable) and proved that theory among basically all other Keynesian theories wrong. Keynesian economics is what the liberal party and labour, etc. parties were based on, but when Keynesians were proved wrong they couldn't go around calling themselves Keynesians anymore, so they denounced economics proclaiming that economics doesn't solve all economic problems(i.e. poors situation), the most retarded statement ever proclaimed.

By the way I self taught myself economics, don't think that teachers in this country are smart enough to teach this shit. They are just fucking retarded. My brother has had 1 high school, and 2 UW Madison economics classes and I have to say they almost made him dumber. I kick his ass over and over again, and he admits defeat everytime. I have yet to take a school economics class I was signed up for one this semester, but the teacher told me that I should get out of the class considering I know more about it than he does.

Old Post Apr-18-2005 02:16  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala


Old Post Apr-18-2005 02:21  United States
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