quote:

Originally posted by svens_bath whther the pflp and ira are close in Marxist ideology or not..muslims will still be sympathetic to the muslim cause, and so i dont think you can explicitly say that they dont have anti-Western sentiments.

I'm not saying they dont have anti-western sentiments but you cant have a one size fits all just because a group happens to be Islamist. The marxist groups during the 70s DID help each other (the Palestinians worked with numerous European terrorist groups in their operations, people like Carlos the Jackel for example) The same cannot be said for the Islamist groups. no doubt there is cooperation amongst some, but when we look at the well known ones like Hizballah and Hamas, they have constantly rejected al-Qaida and what they stand for and they even condemned the 11/9 attacks (altho both groups have helped each other out in their LOCALISED cause)

quote:

ok even if osama bin laden doesnt want to take down the west, hes provoked a reaction from the west that has engaged many disaffected muslim youths who are now taking anti-western stances, and whether he likes it or not, hes provoked a war on islam, which will provoke a reaction against the West

Yes it is a traditional tactic to get people on your side. Bin Laden attacked America to get them out of Saudi Arabia, not to destroy them. After that the aim was to prevoke America to take the course of action it is taking now to bolster the ranks for phase two of his objective to overthro the Saudi royal family.

quote:

you constantly hear muslims denounce the way of the west. sounds to me like they would take down the western way of life if they could.

The USSR could not "take down the west" and they had nuclear bombs!!! Bin Laden is not an idiot and neither are his followers. I'm sure they would like to keep the western way of life out of their own countries but as for destroying it in our countries they are not that stupid to even think they could succeed. But thats what the politicians tell you and you lap it all up...

but osama bin laden doesnt control al-Q they are splintered and some may organise under the al-Q banner with their own agenda.this is what my original point is. osama bin laden's aims arent the same as those joining him. go down to your local mosque and im sure youll find a general consensus of a hatred of amemrica and its way of life. like i have said quite a few times, i dont think that they could take down the us, or its way of life..but Ahmed down the mosque probably does.

whther or not they publicly reject al-Q, there are undoubtedly memebers of either gropu that support the al-q cause, and who knows what they could do in the future. after all these groups are a source of power for their leaders. if they settled their local disputes do you think they will just pack in the gun-slinging and go back to selling magic carpets? i dont think so, there is the possibility that they could turn their attention on what they see as global injustices in the muslim world.

quote:

Originally posted by svens_bath but osama bin laden doesnt control al-Q they are splintered and some may organise under the al-Q banner with their own agenda.this is what my original point is. osama bin laden's aims arent the same as those joining him. go down to your local mosque and im sure youll find a general consensus of a hatred of amemrica and its way of life. like i have said quite a few times, i dont think that they could take down the us, or its way of life..but Ahmed down the mosque probably does.

No I dont even think Ahmed down the local Mosque thinks they can destroy America! And the fact that there are loads of different groups all with their own aims suggests you should take them all individually in order to find the best way of dealing with them. The best example I can think of (well two really) is Bosnia and Chechnya. Al-Qaida fought in Bosnia against the Serbs (just like us!!) so inevitably the Bosnian (Muslim) forces are gonna have "links to al-Qaida". But do you think the same solution to the Bosnian crisi was the same as the solutiuon to al-Qaida? Obviously not cos we were kind of on al-Qaida's side then weren't we? We bombed Afghanistan to take out al-Qaida, but we went into Bosnia to protect the muslims. Again in Chechnya, al-Qaida had fought the Russians, but its pretty widely accepted that it is Russian oppression that is the cause. Are we to turn our back and group everyone who is linked with al-Qaida together and treat them the same? No cos they obviously have diffent agendas from al-Qaida and different causes (meaning there is a different solution to each one) If we treated them all as the same we would have taken the Serbian side in the Bosnian war and we would be supporting the Russians in their war in Chechnya, but we dont because they are not the same as al-Qaida despite having links with them and despite having fought side by side with them.

quote:

whther or not they publicly reject al-Q, there are undoubtedly memebers of either gropu that support the al-q cause, and who knows what they could do in the future. after all these groups are a source of power for their leaders. if they settled their local disputes do you think they will just pack in the gun-slinging and go back to selling magic carpets? i dont think so, there is the possibility that they could turn their attention on what they see as global injustices in the muslim world.

How many times can could I say to you that none of these groups want to destroy the west!? And no, Hamas and Hizballah do not support al-Qaida or their aims! Hamas and Hizballah are political parties (just like Sien Fein) who are concerned about their own country. Bin Laden is the same, he is concerned about saudi Arabia, Hamas with Palestine and Hizballah with Lebanon. Next you'll be telling me all the Palestinian groups are the same cos they want liberation from Israel?

You have to take each group separately cos if you dont you wont find the right solution to deal with them...

well if theyre polticial parties then they arent to be included as terrorist gropus and so wouldnt be linked to al-q. but if they are terorist gropus all im saying is that you cant rule out the possibility that one day they make decide to take on the west. there is strong anti-western setniment in the muslim world, which is why your seeing a return by many muslims to a greater observence of their religion.. i think that this could translate into an anti-western stance by members of any islamic group.

you will never be able to get rid of this islamic threat. its here to stay until the end of time now. many muslims see this as a sign of the end of the earth; judgement day. also niether party will budge on their demands.

bosnia wasnt a terorist threat. it was a humanitarian situation, the muslims did not create a threat, so you wouldnt regard them as an islamist threat. i amn't saying lump all muslims as terrorists..just the ones that make bombs.

we wil have to agree to disagree on our assessment of the threat of islamist terror..ive finished studying for the night so im off.

peace in the middle east

Last edited by svens_bath on May-07-2005 at 03:03

pressed submit by acident there..im editing it to finish it off

somebody blew up tiesto!

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by svens_bath well if theyre polticial parties then they arent to be included as terrorist gropus and so wouldnt be linked to al-q. but if they are terorist gropus all im saying is that you cant rule out the possibility that one day they make decide to take on the west. there is strong anti-western setniment in the muslim world, which is why your seeing a return by many muslims to a greater observence of their religion.. i think that this could translate into an anti-western stance by members of any islamic group.

Well if you adhere to the theory that there are an infinite number of alternate universes which means there are an infinate number of possible futures, then there is very little that you can rule out. However, if we talk about probablility then it is extremely unlikely that Hamas, Hizballah, whoever will turn their attentions against the West - why would they? They might not like the policies of the West (or America) but neither do I yet do you see me emptying a bag of fertilizer in my bath tub?!

quote:

you will never be able to get rid of this islamic threat. its here to stay until the end of time now. many muslims see this as a sign of the end of the earth; judgement day. also niether party will budge on their demands.

Well you could only make that kind of statement based on the sentiments of the people in the Arab world, but as democracy is probably a more popular ideology amongst the masses than Islamism then I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion?

quote:

bosnia wasnt a terorist threat. it was a humanitarian situation, the muslims did not create a threat, so you wouldnt regard them as an islamist threat. i amn't saying lump all muslims as terrorists..just the ones that make bombs.

Yea...like the Bosnians then?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z somebody blew up tiesto!

Sadly, terrorists don't do favours

___________________
Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Sadly, terrorists don't do favours

hehe I guess that can be interpreted in more ways than one. I was being corny. Tiesto means flowerpot in spanish. DJ Flowerpot

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z hehe I guess that can be interpreted in more ways than one. I was being corny. Tiesto means flowerpot in spanish. DJ Flowerpot

You learn something new everyday..........

___________________
*** Sig edited -> see rule #5
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/dublin6/100-percent-liberal.gif