quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer I feel sorry for all the muslims in London right now .Their lives wont never be the same.

...and yet you make no mention of the victims of their bombs.

Clearly, you support terrorism and radical Islam's plot to conquer Europe.

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Originally posted by George Smiley He was under surviellance, it is quite possible he only became a suspect when police told him to stop and he ran off. I fail to see how you would "bring him in for questioning" when he has shown no reason to think he would have gone along with it, he would still have ran away wherever the police challenged him, and therefore would still have been shot

So the shooting of an innocent man was justified? How do you know he was told to stop? Because the tele said so? How do you know if he was even followed from his home? Because the BBC said so? How did you know that he was even a terrorist? When the TV said so? You just don't appreciate freedom until you are willing to give it away for security until it is you that has the gun pointed at your head.

You fail to realize that there were more than just a few PLAIN CLOTHES officers that could have subdued their suspect to take him in. This doesn't like like less than six PLAINCLOTHES officers were assigned to follow him.

And AS YET their identities remain secret. Why be secretive in an execution style shooting?

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Originally posted by Dervish If was on a train and a suspect who just ran from armed cops (just after a few people blew themselfs up on trains). I'd want the cops to shoot him too personnally. It's understandable, if he was a bomber he could take out loads of people. He's run from cops asking him to stop onto a train, that due cause in my book. The cop chasing him onto the train must have been pretty brave if you ask me jumping onto someone he thought was a bomer. But the British cops don't just randomly shoot people. If they do they will get a rapeing over it. I think it should be looked at as an accident. Remember if he was part of a cell say 3 others he could have been meeting them. Not going to a station to blow himself up. They stopped him when he went to a station.

So I guess summary execution is ok in your book unless it is you that looks down the barrel of a gun.

quote:

Summary Execution: A summary execution is a type of extrajudicial punishment in which a person suspected of subversive or other criminal activity is killed, often at the time and place of their being discovered, and hence usually without any meaningful inquiry or investigation. Summary executions typically occur in a theatre of war, or in a protracted riot or other context of profound instability where a functioning criminal justice system is unavailable. To define further, they also typically occur outside; bringing the accused to an office or lockup, or before the finders' superior, is generally a prelude to an inquest or trial. Summary executions are often carried out using expedient means such as a firearm, though hanging, stabbing, stoning, and decapitation have also been used. Poisoning, electrocution, and other tortures requiring controlled conditions and would be impractical. They are often a tactic of early resort employed by groups involved in guerrilla warfare.

Sounds like a plan for some unless they are "suspected" to be a terrorist:

quote:

The US Government is looking into ways to expand the role of special operations forces to include sending them on covert missions to capture or kill al-Qaeda leaders around the world, the New York Times newspaper has reported. According to the report, which quoted senior Pentagon advisers, these missions might be carried out without informing the governments of the countries involved. US 'considers assassination squads' {BBCNews online article from Tuesday, 13 August, 2002}

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Jul-25-2005 at 17:09

I'm not going to go into the bullshit definitions war with you but you know fine well that reacting to a threat (percived or real) is different to an execution.

And so far it looks like he ran because he was on a dodgy visa and they had started doing checks at tube stations.

>LINK<

Though he did get there on a bus which is strange if they thought he was a threat and were following him.

But the fact remains they asked first and shot second. NOT the other way around.

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quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 You fail to realize that there were more than just a few PLAIN CLOTHES officers that could have subdued their suspect to take him in. This doesn't like like less than six PLAINCLOTHES officers were assigned to follow him.

Would you like to subdue someone you thought had a bomb on them they were planning to blow up?

I personally (if they guy ran ONTO A TRAIN from the POLICE WHO IDENTIFIED THEMSELFS) wouldn't try to give him the chance in the climate there was then and is now.

I know it changes us and thats what they want but thats the way it has to be really.

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quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 People "rushed to judgement" thinking that that man was a terrorist and deserved what he got until Scotland Yard said he was not a terrorist and not connected to the bombings and was a regrettable mistake. Should you continue to trust the same people that shot an innocent man in cold blood to tell you the "truth" or "facts" next time around? I don't think so. Living in New York I've always had a distrust for the NYPD's tactics. Although there are a few officers that make the barrel spoiled there are some that I know personally that just want to retire and get their pension even if it means they stay a patrolman for 20 years. But when you have a situation regarding the firing of a pistol and a death then right away do you have the spin doctors at work. There will always be people that question a situation such as that.

Right so just because they’re police officers they’re already guilty as charged. Yup anything they say must be a lie because, you know, they’re not normal people like you or I. Therefore we obviously don’t need to hear their version of the events, because there’s no possible way that they could be innocent! You seem to be implying that they take some kind of morbid satisfaction in killing innocent people. Because obviously there’s nothing more fun than chasing a suspected suicide bomber and then jumping on him praying like hell that he doesn’t detonate his vest. And if that guy wasn’t actually a suicide bomber … eh a good time was had by all so it’s ok.

quote:

This will never sit right with me no matter what spin Occ tries to say about it.

Oh gee that’s cute. Let’s see what kind of horrible “spin” I’m propagating:

“I'm not arguing for their guilt or innocence. I'm arguing against any kind of premature judging with so little facts.”

Yup I am a tricky one. Saying that we should get all the facts, and get perspectives from all sides of this debate. I should be ashamed of myself. Clearly we should only be looking at one side of this debate and any arguments to the contrary are evil evil spin!

Anyway here are some additional details:

quote:

Final minutes of the innocent man mistaken for a terrorist By Daniel McGrory IT TOOK 26 minutes for Jean Charles de Menezes to get from his flat in Tulse Hill to the entrance of Stockwell Tube station. In that time the 27-year-old electrician did not appear to realise that a team of 30 Scotland Yard officers were following his every move. Police were already staking out the redbricked block of flats in Scotia Road after the address had been found in documents left in one of the abandoned rucksacks from the abortive attacks last Thursday. There was also partially destroyed evidence that the crop-haired bomber in the sweatshirt with a New York logo on the front, seen in CCTV pictures fleeing Oval station, had recently stayed at the Scotia Road property. There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am, the police must have realised from the photographs they carried that he was not one of the four bombers. Even so they decided that he was “a likely candidate” to follow because of his demeanour and colour, so one group set off on foot after him. As he waited at a nearby bus stop the reconnaissance team sought urgent instructions on whether to challenge him right away or let him board a bus. They were worried about the dark, bulky, padded jacket he had zipped up on such a muggy morning. The decision was taken to let him go, in the hope that he might lead his shadows to at least one of the bombers. The bus journey was slow, as on any other Friday morning, but Mr Menezes seemed to be in no hurry. He was heading to Willesden Green to fix an alarm system. When it was obvious that he was getting off at the stop nearest Stockwell Tube station, the team on the bus alerted a three-man team of marksmen to move in. As Mr Menezes waited to cross the busy main road, the decision was taken at Scotland Yard that he must not be allowed to get to the platform. The marksmen were told: if you think he has explosives under his coat and he fails to heed shouted warnings, then you must shoot to kill. As the three plain-clothes officers closed in on Mr Menezes, they say that they screamed their first warning that they were armed police. Their version is that he turned, ran into the station concourse, vaulted the ticket barriers and reached a waiting train before they could catch him. They shot him five times in the head when they believed that he was trying to trigger a bomb. His cousin, Alex Alves, claims in one account that Mr Menezes was “playing around with a friend in a game of chase outside the station”. The police insist that he was alone during the entire journey. Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area by a gang of young white men and thought the plain-clothes officers were muggers. By far the most controversial claim comes from a number of witnesses who have cast doubt on police statements that they shouted a warning or identified themselves to the suspect before opening fire. Lee Ruston, 32, who was on the platform, said that he did not hear any of the three shout “police” or anything like it. Mr Ruston, a construction company director, said that he saw two of the officers put on their blue baseball caps marked “police” but that the frightened electrician could not have seen that happen because he had his back to the officers and was running with his head down. Mr Ruston remembers one of the Scotland Yard team screaming into a radio as they were running. Mr Ruston thought the man that they were chasing “looked Asian” as he tumbled on to a waiting Northern Line train. Less than a minute later Mr Menezes was pinned to the floor of the carriage by two men while a third officer fired five shots into the base of his skull. Again, Mr Ruston says that no verbal warning was given. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1707480,00.html

So Scotland Yard made the decision to let him board the bus and then apprehend him when he was approaching the tube station, not the agents in the field. Furthermore, the agents were told to shoot to kill if they believed he was going to detonate his explosives. At this point the agents followed proper procedures and orders from Scotland Yard. The only questionable procedural failure is whether the agents identified themselves as police when they were chasing the subject. If they were wearing clothing that identified them as police, perhaps in the confusion they only yelled for the guy to stop and failed to say that they were police. Or maybe the guy was simply running because of his visa expiration. Were mistakes made? Probably. Are they guilty of bad judgment? Sure. Are they murderers? I’m not sure at this point.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Whether he knew English or not, if you see armed officers chasing your ass, yelling at you, you STOP. Who the hell runs??? I'm sure that's exactly what the officers were thinking too when they made their decision. However, 5 bullets is a little excessive.

8 Bullets to be exact.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dervish ...And so far it looks like he ran because he was on a dodgy visa and they had started doing checks at tube stations. >LINK< Though he did get there on a bus which is strange if they thought he was a threat and were following him. But the fact remains they asked first and shot second. NOT the other way around.

How do you know if the police asked first? Were you there? Did someone you know tell you they did? So then how can you consider that as fact.

Fact is Mr. Menezes is dead.
Fact is that he was shot multiple times in the head.
Fact is that the identities of the "officers" involved are not known.
Fact is that Mr. Menezes is not connected to any terrorist cell.
Fact is that he had an expired visa.

But it does not give anyone the right to risk the public in following a suspect to any conveyance and to kill him based on a perceived threat.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Would you like to subdue someone you thought had a bomb on them they were planning to blow up? I personally (if they guy ran ONTO A TRAIN from the POLICE WHO IDENTIFIED THEMSELFS) wouldn't try to give him the chance in the climate there was then and is now. I know it changes us and thats what they want but thats the way it has to be really.

He BOARDED A BUS before he went to the UNDERGROUND. To say that he was more of a threat in the underground instead of the bus only raises more questions.

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Originally posted by occrider Right so just because they’re police officers they’re already guilty as charged. Yup anything they say must be a lie because, you know, they’re not normal people like you or I. Therefore we obviously don’t need to hear their version of the events, because there’s no possible way that they could be innocent! You seem to be implying that they take some kind of morbid satisfaction in killing innocent people. Because obviously there’s nothing more fun than chasing a suspected suicide bomber and then jumping on him praying like hell that he doesn’t detonate his vest. And if that guy wasn’t actually a suicide bomber … eh a good time was had by all so it’s ok.

So you believe a police officers word over someone elses? Sure a cop has to be a trained observer but think about one thing.

If you were a cop and your job was on the line over a shooting death wouldn't you try to come up with some kind of story to CYA? After all we still don't know who did the shooting. That alone is suspect of something amiss.

quote:

Oh gee that’s cute. Let’s see what kind of horrible “spin” I’m propagating: “I'm not arguing for their guilt or innocence. I'm arguing against any kind of premature judging with so little facts.” Yup I am a tricky one. Saying that we should get all the facts, and get perspectives from all sides of this debate. I should be ashamed of myself. Clearly we should only be looking at one side of this debate and any arguments to the contrary are evil evil spin!

I went back on your posts and something went by way of miscommunication. You were right in getting the facts first. It's just that peeps are trying to gang up one me and I didn't see you standing there trying to break it up a bit. My bad.

quote:

So Scotland Yard made the decision to let him board the bus and then apprehend him when he was approaching the tube station, not the agents in the field. Furthermore, the agents were told to shoot to kill if they believed he was going to detonate his explosives. At this point the agents followed proper procedures and orders from Scotland Yard. The only questionable procedural failure is whether the agents identified themselves as police when they were chasing the subject. If they were wearing clothing that identified them as police, perhaps in the confusion they only yelled for the guy to stop and failed to say that they were police. Or maybe the guy was simply running because of his visa expiration. Were mistakes made? Probably. Are they guilty of bad judgment? Sure. Are they murderers? I’m not sure at this point.

This sounds like either a lengthy criminal trial or a short civil trial on behalf of the bereaved.

To let a suspect ride the bus on his way to whatever he takes them to just smells fishy.

The spin doctors are hard at work here trying to make this a justified shooting. I'd like to see Scotland Yard explain the EIGHT holes in the guys head whilst he was pushed down to kiss the floor.

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quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf ...and yet you make no mention of the victims of their bombs. Clearly, you support terrorism and radical Islam's plot to conquer Europe.

clearly your an idiot and a racist.and you love calling everyone terrorist if they dont agree with you.why dont you feel sorry for the Iraqis that get blown up daily there?but it is ok to you because those are muslims dying and it is no concern to you.so stfu and get lost you racist pig.

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Here's a vid of the Madrid bombings. The law enforcement officials have an obligation to do everything in their power to prevent things like this from happening. Britain has clearly been on edge over the past 2 weeks. Obviously a mistake was made, but the potential consequences could've been far worse. Fact is the guy looked suspicious and "bolted" for the train. It's a situation that none of us should really judge as we probably would've taken similar actions if it were our asses on the line.

http://www.terrorize.dk/misc/311/311.trainbombs.tv2.wmv

Very sobering.

Why ride past Brixton and board at Stockwell? He was heading towards Willesden Green which means he would have to transfer once at Green Park. Both Brixton and Stockwell are on the same line with Brixton being the end of the line.

Another family member said that he had recently been attacked and robbed in that area by a gang of young white men and thought the plain-clothes officers were muggers.
Final minutes of the innocent man mistaken for a terrorist

Mr Menezes' cousin Mr Pereira said the 27-year-old was from the town of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, and had lived in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English.
The BBC's correspondent in Brazil, Tom Gibb, said Mr Menezes had lived for a time in a slum district of Sao Paulo and that could explain why he had run from the police.
Family condemns police shooting

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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka ..The law enforcement officials have an obligation to do everything in their power to prevent things like this from happening...

If I were to sue the NYPD for a crime that could have been prevented I would be laughed out of court at the very least. They can't be everywhere to see everything. That is were cameras come in to watch everyone everywhere. Like in the Underground there are 6000 cameras. But apparently not enough were used on 7/7 or else there wouldn't have requested for people to send in camera phone or other photographic evidence unless a cover up was underway.

quote:

Britain has clearly been on edge over the past 2 weeks. Obviously a mistake was made, but the potential consequences could've been far worse. Fact is the guy looked suspicious and "bolted" for the train. It's a situation that none of us should really judge as we probably would've taken similar actions if it were our asses on the line.

Can you explain why the man was shot five to eight times? After all if you're going to apologize for London's Finest you might as well go all the way and explain why the man has extra holes in his body that he wasn't born with.

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