quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic true liberals (those valuing personal freedom over dogma from tradition or religion) have had no choice but to support the democrats...

Not true, you always have a choice...they could have gone Liberatarian, as I did.......but "liberals" in this country can't stand the right to bear arms, so that would affect their willingness to join such a party.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Of course, the perversion of the word liberal has picked up speed with the illiterate monkey in the white house, who makes no bones about his disgust of liberals. Too bad that more intelligent people like you have bought into it. The average level of enlightement of the US population must be dropping these years.

But you didn't read my post then; Even Democrats PROUDLY call themsleves "Liberals"......the literal meaning of the word can't be used anymore in this application...it has become more of a euphemism, if anything.

And HardTranceProd, I just recently began posting here (very recently in fact) even though I signed up a long time ago...I did not realize how much of a truly international board this was. It's refreshing actually. But I will try to be more sensitive to your hatred of Americans and kiss your butt from time to time, ok?

Now go play in traffic.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco And HardTranceProd, I just recently began posting here (very recently in fact) even though I signed up a long time ago...I did not realize how much of a truly international board this was. It's refreshing actually. But I will try to be more sensitive to your hatred of Americans and kiss your butt from time to time, ok? Now go play in traffic.

Um, dude, I'm American myself.

It just saddens me when my fellow Americans' first instinct is to assume that everyone is like them, everyone's values are just like theirs, and everyone is a "liberal" or "conservative" in the American sense, or that everyone even uses these terms the American way. [or uses them at all]

In effect, this is what little children do, because they can't grasp the idea that others may be different from them. And many people in this country, unfortunately, are like little children.

For example, why did you first assume this was an American forum? I personally would never have made that assumption about any forum, and I started posting here recently just like you.

This is very revealing in terms of American culture. Maybe someone wants to make a separate thread about that.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd Um, dude, I'm American myself.

Really? I would have NEVER guessed ..........any relation to Michael Moore by chance then?

Listen up Trance Addicts!

Don't confuse anti-American American's (like Michael Moore and such) and their erroneous and intentionally twisted "facts" about "stupid" Americans with, well, what "Americans" are really all about. There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people.

EOM.

donnybrasco, do us all a favour and please define "Americanism", and then we might understand what "anti-Americanism" is.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Really? I would have NEVER guessed ..........any relation to Michael Moore by chance then? Listen up Trance Addicts! Don't confuse anti-American American's (like Michael Moore and such) and their erroneous and intentionally twisted "facts" about "stupid" Americans with, well, what "Americans" are really all about. There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people. EOM.

So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

You just pointed out a totalitarian concept here St_Andrew, if you criticize the policies of a Goverment/a Goverment, you therefore hate the people and the culture.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Not true, you always have a choice...they could have gone Liberatarian, as I did.......but "liberals" in this country can't stand the right to bear arms, so that would affect their willingness to join such a party.

Well, because of your all-or-nothing, rigid, and outdated form of democracy the people voting libertarian really have no influence on the government of the US. If you want to have a say you are basically confined to voting republican or democrat. And given those two choices the choice is pretty obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco But you didn't read my post then; Even Democrats PROUDLY call themsleves "Liberals"......the literal meaning of the word can't be used anymore in this application...it has become more of a euphemism, if anything.

But you didn't read my post then: The Democratic party proudly calls themselves liberals because they represent a lot of the liberals! When they say that the state shouldn't interfere in matters such as abortion and gay marriage, or that the choice of what constitutes a solid theory of origin of mankind should be left to scientists, then they are advocating liberal views.

Last edited by trancaholic on Aug-10-2005 at 21:29

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco any relation to Michael Moore by chance then? There is a media element in this country that uses it's right of free expression to the shameful point of trying to paint all Americans as a self-centered, insensitive, and just plain "dumb" people.

Not at all. The reason why Michael Moore attracted so much buzz and attention in the first place, is because his movie was such a stark contrast to what the American media was saying and showing. Most people could never have imagined certain facts because they were never shown the footage, due to the wall-to-wall insipid "coverage" provided by dolts like Wolf Blitzer et al.

Hence, your argument is invalid: most of the media in this country rarely questions or provokes. Hell, it took foreign journalists (think Britain and Ireland) to turn up the heat and ask Bush and Rumsfeld real hard questions during last year's press conferences.

There's certainly enough patriotism and self-congratulation in this country right now, so a little criticism never hurts.

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Aug-10-2005 at 22:07

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z donnybrasco, do us all a favour and please define "Americanism", and then we might understand what "anti-Americanism" is.

Did I use that term exactly somewhere?

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew So anyone critizising the american government is then anti american? Wow that makes a lot of sense!

Actually, HardTranceProd was critisizing Americans as a people...so you're right, Moore isn't really a good example to make a comparison too HTP, as Moore likes to critisize organizations more than people. However, Moore does, by virtue of his political slant, like to purposefully paint anyone who is a part of said organizations as being the completely stupid typical American that the rest of the world likes to view us as, imho...he's throwing fuel on the fire for positions at the box office...weak.

quote:

Originally posted by HardTranceProd There's certainly enough patriotism and self-congratulation in this country right now, so a little criticism never hurts.

Really? I wish I could recall that poll of the media done just about a year ago, where it was found that about 75% consider themselves to have a "Liberal" POV...if you can't see that reflected in the coverage we have in our media, than I can only guess you'll be happy only if the media gets to 100% "Liberal" in it's POV.

Last edited by donnybrasco on Aug-10-2005 at 22:59

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Did I use that term exactly somewhere?

Well, if you're going to use terms like anti-American, you kind of have to explain what "Americaism" is, then we derive the meaning of "Anti-Americanism", which would explain terms like "Anti-American."

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Actually, HardTranceProd was critisizing Americans as a people...so you're right, Moore isn't really a good example to make a comparison too HTP, as Moore likes to critisize organizations more than people. However, Moore does, by virtue of his political slant, like to purposefully paint anyone who is a part of said organizations as being the completely stupid typical American that the rest of the world likes to view us as, imho...he's throwing fuel on the fire for positions at the box office...weak.

Wait, does this sound familiar? Oh yeah thats right, thats pretty much the same tactics as bush is useing! but the other way around! its the traditional with us or without us sense that seem to be very popular in the US. Im not a big fan of moore, but i must say that he is a good counterpart to a very conservative media / lobby groups in the US. yes, your media isnt very leftich, its very much the opposite, and almost everyone that lives outside of the US would agree to that.

The only way in which your media make the rest of the world think you are stupid, is that its very pro american and in our sense, conservative. So what you think would be good for us to see, is in fact haveing the opposite effect on most europeans and alike. So guys like moore is a "hero" outside us because he stands up against something that is very biased in one way, the traditional american way.