quote:

Originally posted by jdat I'm not debating the value that wearing the hijab represents; but when I see such anger being directed at me when I was purely stating facts I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise. Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure. Just go on and blame the french.

Well I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I certaintly didn't intent to make you feel that my anger was directed at you. I'm more pissed off at French goverment for passing this law. But the fact that 75% of the population also supports it, says quite a bit about how tolerant the majority is. And please take note of what I said earlier:

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I'm wondering weather they're aware of the fact that wearing a hijab is considered MANDTORY by most Muslim women according the the religious text (Quran), and it not a fuckin fasion statement or a "religious symbol."

The reason why I said that was because it hard for me to believe that 75% of the population would support it having COMPLETE knowledge of the issue, unless they think it's ok to impose secularism on religious people, or impose religion secular people, or that people should not have the freedom to practice their religion, or not practice religion. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't disagree with this new law if they believe in freedom of religion (and freedom of expression too, although this case is more related to freedom of religion).

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Originally posted by jdat I can't help but feel non impressed at the fact that a very large number of these younger females wearing the hijab do it because of family pressure especially from the father and brothers who'd kick their asses if they did otherwise. Yeah that's freedom to choose and to belief. Sure.

Now that a pretty unfair and inaccurate generalization on your part. I know plenty of Muslim women who don't wear a hijab and plenty who do, and it's their own decision. Such stereo types reflect nothing but ignorance (although you're not entirely wrong to say this, this certainly isn't the general case at all).

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Originally posted by jdat ps: I'm not defending the way France is acting in this matter but I just think moderation is the key and I feel it is not the case on either side.

I don't think this issue really has much to do with moderation, it's about freedom of religion, and only the individual can choose wheather they choose to follow a religion or not, and how they choose to follow it. This new law prevents them from doing so, which is simply wrong.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

You are supposed to wear a headscarf according to the christian belief as well I think? That would mean this law is equally discriminating against Christians!

Btw, I still don't support the law...

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Originally posted by St_Andrew You are supposed to wear a headscarf according to the christian belief as well I think? That would mean this law is equally discriminating against Christians!

Apparently Christian, Jewish and Muslim women have traditionaly worn a head-covering of some sort so it would suprise me if it's in the Bible too (probably the Old Testament).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't think this issue really has much to do with moderation, it's about freedom of religion, and only the individual can choose wheather they choose to follow a religion or not, and how they choose to follow it. This new law prevents them from doing so, which is simply wrong.

And only in schools.


I would also like to bring to your attention that attack against Religion is not purely directed against Muslims in France.

Christians as a whole are also under repression from the governement in some ways far beyond what the muslims are getting. I'm not saying that invalidates what happens to muslims but I just thought I'd let you know.

In the public domain ( work and school arena ) the governement is trying to squash all religion and not just the symbols.

I see Mosques getting grants from the governement to be built and operate.

As a whole I feel muslims can operate as freely as they may that being set aside in the work and school place.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Apparently Christian, Jewish and Muslim women have traditionaly worn a head-covering of some sort so it would suprise me if it's in the Bible too (probably the Old Testament).

According to jewish faith men wear a kippah to be reminded of G-d who is the one above us who's meaning is fairly similar in the basic representattion then for muslims.

Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make. It's unfair for all religious people affected by it.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Instead of focusing on the ban itself why not focus on the reason for the wearing of a hijab (agree with Lopitrance's post btw) in the first place.


Some Muslims say the head-scarf is a symbol of their religion. In that case doesn't it show female opression?

Some Muslims say the head-scarf has nothing to do with their religion. In that case I think I'll wear a head-scarf myself as a fashion item Why would this cause problems then?

Some say that I am intolerant/racist for saying something like the above, why? I'm just merely stating some facts and thinking/acting rationally accordingly.

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Originally posted by Synthesia Some say that I am intolerant/racist for saying something like the above, why? I'm just merely stating some facts and thinking/acting rationally accordingly.

Thinking or acting rationally is inherently intolerant of religion!

^^hahaha that makes me laugh...you can't be serious can you

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Originally posted by Synthesia ^^hahaha that makes me laugh...you can't be serious can you

Of course I'm serious!

As a religious person, I'm sick of people trying to use frivolous things like logic or reason to analyze my beliefs. That's not fair. What religious people want is to be treated equally. We believe in our faith just as much as anybody else believes in their own rationality, so it's wrong for people to try to impose their logical framework on top of our faith-based beliefs.

I'm a human being too, so if you don't respect my beliefs, regardless of how stupid or irrational they might be, that clearly makes you an intolerant asshole and you should probably be drawn and quartered. I put just as much thought into my beliefs as an atheist does, as I'm sure most religious people would agree. In fact I'm going to go so far as to speak for every religious person on Earth.

What every religious person (99% of the population) wants is the respect and understanding all humans beings deserve. If we decide that our beliefs tell us that we should burn down your house, for example, you have no right to object on the basis of silly notions of logic or reason. And if you do object, then you are a bigot and we look forward to the day that you will burn in hell. Understand now?

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Originally posted by Arbiter If we decide that our beliefs tell us that we should burn down your house, for example, you have no right to object on the basis of silly notions of logic or reason. And if you do object, then you are a bigot and we look forward to the day that you will burn in hell. Understand now?

<-- so you call logic and reason are silly notions - hahaha with all due respect, but please, how can somebody like you still be taking seriously

Isn't everything one does based on logic or reason, perhaps I should add mislogic and misconception/interpretation too. If you just believe anything or show sheepish behaviour by following others without knowing why I think you're quite helpless. If I believe it is right to kill someone then everybody should respect my belief and if not they will burn in hell will they? Hahaha...stop following the masses and the brains of others but use your own and hopefully you will come to some sort of realisation.

And about being treated equally I agree, everybody should be treated equally..Muslim women should be treated equally as Western women.

Oh and I am not an atheist btw.

Said by an 'intolerant asshole' who wrongly thinks rationally and logically about things.

Btw my first 2 questions have still not been answered in my first post...Can't they? Or do they make too much logical sense that they can not be argued against?

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Originally posted by Arbiter What every religious person (99% of the population) wants is the respect and understanding all humans beings deserve.

99% of the population huh