Yes, that's EXACTLY how it works. No amount of doing good will get you into Heaven because every single person that has ever existed on this planet (except for Jesus) has sinned. When God looks at an unforgiven person, he sees them covered in sin. God can't allow sin into Heaven, because that would ruin Heaven's purity. However once a person does ask forgiveness for his/her sins, God WILL forgive the person of ALL of the sins they've committed or ever will commit. And it's not something that has to be done more than once. Sure, God would like to hear you say that you're sorry for sinning so much, but after you've already done it once it isn't necessary to do it again, though it doesn't hurt to either. Jimmy went to Hell because he never asked God for forgiveness, so he's saying "Too bad God, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want and you can just cram those sins up your ass." Billy-bob, though he was considered to be a bad person here on Earth, realized what he was doing was wrong and he told God that he was sorry for it. That got him into Heaven. No matter how bad a person anyone is, God will forgive them of their sins if they'd only ask. If they don't ask and they end up in hell, God can only say "I tried to warn you."

Alright, I'll try and make this brief cos it's 3am and I've gotta be up for work tomorrow.

quote:

A majority of the replies here are from non-religious people like myself, and - frankly - none of them comes as a surprise (least of all Renegades views).

I'm not that predictable am I?

Heh, no, I know I've said the same things a dozen times on this forum, but it's only because the same questions keep on cropping up. I can just be a boring git in that sense.

And PsychoEwok, I was prepared to respect your views up until the last post, but what you said just there was....hmmm.... almost creepy. You are saying that any action is justifiable so long as we repent to your god? If I went out and murdered 20 people, that would be okay in gods eyes so long as I showed the slightest hint of remorse to him afterwards? What kind of a humanitairan perspective is that? And people wonder why I get frustrated when they tell me atheists and secular humanists couldn't possibly abide by a system of morality?

What you said in the last post, is exactly why I am against Christian morality. I know you do not represent the views of all others, but the moral absolutism you convey is present among all Christians - regardless of how rigidly they follow the faith - and works to the detriment of humanity in this lifetime. Moral absolutism, regardless of how diluted it may be, just weakens those who abide by it, and leads them into a life where the only line seperating good and evil is a book written by people 2000 years ago.

As Pjotr G said, if that's the pesimistic view - antithetical to the very substance of human existence as Neitzche put it - you wish to convey, then, quite frankly I don't need your religion. Even if the existence of your God was proven tomorrow, I would refuse to worship him.

I would rather live my own life - a life satisfactory to my own standards, and compatible with those of others - and end up in hell, then to sacrifice my own moral standards, thoughts and practices to suit the whim of a power-hungry deity.

I don't mean to cause offense, but I'm a tad drunk and it's just the way I feel.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic A majority of the replies here are from non-religious people like myself, and - frankly - none of them comes as a surprise (least of all Renegades views). To sum up, most of you think that religious people perform rituals because it makes them feel good about themselves. Exactly what I'm thinking when Jehovas Witnesses are at my door: "Damn, you people feel so much better than me don't you?!?". Thanks for the replies, I'm a bit baffled by the lack of replies by religious people, which I'll interpret as a lack of religious people in general or that religious people don't know why they perform rituals. Which of the two options that are the greater loss to God I can't say.

i'm a religious person and i haven't replied yet cuz i was wrapped up in clinics all of yesterday and i've got rounds in a few minutes but i'll try to address this topic after lunch if i have time but definitely before the weekend is over. and robby, i'm from the open-minded LA so what you want? and i'm far from eloquent, like our good friend renegade, so it may take a couple of posts for me to get my point across. and my intent is not to offend but have a good healthy debate. i've gotta run to rounds but i'll get back with you all. cheers!

lost

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"This book is dedicated, with love, to Bobby who found the only pound of pure - Faith in a Loving God." Hubert Selby, Jr. dedication to the latest edition of Requiem for a Dream

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade And people wonder why I get frustrated when they tell me atheists and secular humanists couldn't possibly abide by a system of morality?

I did wonder about that when I read your earlier posts (not only in this thread): To me my set of values come from a perception of some spiritual connectivity between all creatures in the world, but for someone like you, that have no faith, why would you care if some 5000 people in NYC dies from a terrorist act, famine claims children lives in third world countries etc.? *Your* life would continue as it is, correct?
I'm not saying that you're a cold bastard, but I wonder how you explain the misery you feel in these situations (that is, if you feel misery).


And for PsycoEwok: I read your replies in isolation once more, and apologize for my erroneous interpretation of your views. Actually you stated that you did rituals to show reverence to God, but as the thread from that point on went into a discussion on access rights to heaven, I got it mixed up. Sorry.
Now, that I got it, however, I would like to know if you actually think God cares whether you do rituals or not? And if so, would you be punished for not doing them? After all, you can only have fun saying grace a fixed number of times, right?

Look i beleive that God loves all of his children...

however for PsycoEwok to say that you can do all the wrong in the world--like--rape a 4 year old girl--kill thousands of people--rob and steal--lie--commit adultry-cause mass destructions on the world and or any other sickening offense so many human beings have done...and most of the time they say their God told them to do it....and for PsycoEwok to say that aslong as you ask God or Jesus for their forgiveness you will be allowed into Heaven is obsurd...that is simply not true and if it is....leave me out of Heaven...i would rather sit in purgatory for all eternity then be in the same afterlife as all those sick fucking people who where allowed into heaven after committing those horriffic sins because they said freaken sorry....thats bullshit...i dont buy that...

People say the Bible has words to live by....there are passages that i can say thats true...but when a friend of my mothers died a couple years ago...at his funeral on his cards (you know those funeral cards they hand out at wakes) the following passage/phrase was handed out...i am NOT sure if it is from the Bible , but whereever it is from i can actually say this phrase is one that i try to live by...here it is...

PROMISE YOURSELF:
1. To be strong, that nothing can disturb your peace of mind.

2. To talk health, happiness and prosperity to every person you meet.

3. To make all your friends feel that there is something in them.

4. to look at the sunny side of everything and make your optimism come true.

5.To think only of the best, to work only for the best, and expect only the best.

6. To be just as enthusiastic about the success of others as you are your own.

7. To forget the mistakes of the past and press on to greater achievements of the future.

8. To wear a cheerful countenance at all times and give every living creature you meet a smile.

9. To give so much time to the improvement of yourself that you have no time to criticize others.

10. To be too large for worry. too noble for anger, too strong for fear, and too happy to permit the presence of trouble.

END

this was written on his wake card...and i try and read it every morning as a guide to help me be a better person, not something i pray to or worship, but just some inspiring words....

anyway bye

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

Please forgive me if something similar has been posted in this thread before but I just flew over most of the posts. Lazy me...

Why do some people insist that everything that is stated in the bible has actually happend? I think of the stories in the bible as an analogy, a simile. I`m not practicing religion, but I feel really close to the christian ethics. Love your next one as you love yourself! I don`t believe that the bible is to be taken literally but it`s just pictures. Like a compendium:"How to be a good human being".

Don`t get me wrong, I do believe in a life after death but it has nothing to do with "places" like heaven or something. Try to broaden your views and draw your own conclusions (do NOT take everything a priest tells you for granted! Make up your own mind. -> Had to write this since someone said that god created us all to worship him, which is definitely NOT in the bible)

To make a long story short since I don`t feel like writing a long,clear argumentation right now: Religions are ethics. They show you how you could lead your life, be it you want to live it as a good person or a bad person, but it doesn`t have anything to do with "how to live your life to go to heaven".

Trying to be a good person is more religious than going to church and pray everyday.

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Imma gonna chime in for a bit, then I'll leave.

I saw someone claim the Bible put forth a lot of impossibility's, such as events wich defy the laws of Physics, Nature, and the universe in general (the REALLY long post).

Well don't forget that most of the Bible (especially the old stories like Noah's Ark) were passed down from word of mouth for several generations each. Most of these "impossible" stories are probably just normal occurences, just warped horribly warped out of proportion by people who try and pass it down.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Sir Lunchalot posted along the same lines a me at the same time. In short, the Bible isn't something you should take EVERY single word for word.

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[img]http://members.shaw.ca/magimaster/xxlkubosan300-60.gif[img]
edit sig- image too large please resize

Indeed. Use the bible as a guideline, not as a book with rules.

And finally I'd like to add the hierarchie of ethical importance

1. Don't do Evil
2. Don't let others do evil, or at least don't help others do evil
3. Go against existing Evil
4. Do Good

Apparently the first one is the most important. It's from a business ethics book. Maybe I remembered it incorrectly anyways, making it totally redundant hehehe


oh yeah, about how you can feel for victims of 11th september. Separete from religion, people can feel sympathy, think about other people rite?

ok, well i think this is the bottom line: (and frankly why i LOVE christianity....)

it teaches people to be good to one another

...the golden rule, etc... I like that frankly, regardless of what they believe they will end up, etc... I am a good person. I don't need Christianity to tell me that. But the fact that a lot of people that led difficult/gangster lives and "found" jesus... i'm all for that. If it helps people clean up their act, become better people, then more power to Christianity. This is one section where i will back Christianity up.

I have known some people that were hard core "thugs" and after an arrest record and trouble with friends dying, etc... they turned to the church and have cleaned up... and let me just say that i'd MUCH rather stumble into them in a dark alley alone at night than a non-religious gangster who thinks there is nothing more to life than killing people or fighting.

Cheers
-ABT-

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Peace.

i go to church, Bible study, etc. because i also enjoy the spiritual guidance that i get from the pastoral staff. unfortunately, when left to my own devices, i do not study the Bible as much as i should, and i find that these structured environments help me to study. and i do not study the Bible because i feel that i need to otherwise God will be mad at me. for the longest time i never picked up my Bible but lately i've been feeling a great urge to get into it more. also i feel very refreshed after going to church and singing praise songs and worshipping God. those weeks when i am out of town or in a meeting and i miss church or Bible study then i feel like i'm dragging. as far as helping the church with their youth outreach, i do that because i feel that God has so richly blessed my life that i would like to attempt to return the favor to him. in no way by doing these things do i feel more religious than others or that i am earning my way into God's good graces or heaven or anything like that. in fact the only way to get to heaven or in God's good graces is through faith in Jesus Christ. i know a lot of you don't agree with this and when i have more time i will comment on what is already posted with my beliefs so we may have a discussion about it. i go by Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

and as far as saying grace goes, i personally do not do that. there is no reason as to why i do not say grace, i just don't. i think if you said grace prior to every meal then you should do it because it is in your heart to thank the Lord for your food. you should not do it because you feel that you are required. God does not require you to do these things (going to church, saying grace, wearing a cross, etc.) but he requires that you have faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross to take away the sins of the world. that's it. i also wear a cross around my neck. i never did until my sister bought it for me for my 18th birthday. i actually like it. i'm real shy about talking about religion because peeps get all upset and angry. but by wearing my cross it is sort of an advertisement that i'm part of this group and i adhere to this ideology as renegade referred to in his first post. once again it doesn't make me any better or worse of a person for doing so. it is just how i choose to accesorize (sp?). i will refer to all the points made here over the next few days. interesting to see what everyone has to say. i hope i answered at least part of the original question for you trancaholic.

lost

___________________
"This book is dedicated, with love, to Bobby who found the only pound of pure - Faith in a Loving God." Hubert Selby, Jr. dedication to the latest edition of Requiem for a Dream

Tiesto14, everything I've said so far IS true. God will allow anyone into Heaven if they repent. It's human nature to not give people second chances or anything though, so I understand your point of view. I'd probably do the same if it were left up to me. However, like I said, God knows everything, so he knows when you're lying and when you're telling the truth. If a person finally repents his sins to God, and the person is truly sorry for what he or she has done, then they get into Heaven. Saying a prayer asking for forgiveness doesn't mean anything to God if you don't actually mean it. So again, anyone that asks God for forgiveness because they regret all of the sins they've commited before, then the person WILL be forgiven. It is plainly stated in the Bible that God will forgive a person of any and all sins now and forever. And you say I need to read the Bible more? Sure I'll read the Bible some more, can't get enough of it. But don't make it sound like you know every little detail in it because you've already proven to me that you don't.

Trancaholic: Yes God does care if you go to church and tithe and perform in a few rituals here and there. But he's not going to damn you to hell if you don't do them. (assuming that the person is forgiven of his or her sins) But don't think it won't have an effect. See, if God notices you trying your best to stay clear of sin and pray to him every so often, and all of the other Christian things, then he will most likely reward you for it in SOME way. I point you to Billy Grahm. Do you have any idea how much money that man is making simply by preaching? Something that every pastor does on Sunday morning. God rewarded him by shaping him into a very powerful speaker/preacher. Billy Grahm knew exactly what God wanted him to do with this incredible gift, and so he obeyed God and is now making probably millions of dollars because of it. Will this happen to everyone that obeys God and does everything that Billy did? No, certainly not. Why not? Because God has a specific plan for each and every person he has created. However we will go and try to steer our own path through life, and we pretty much toss God's plan out the window. Maybe God doesn't want 100000000 Billy Grahms running around. Maybe he needs normal-ish people like me (well I think I'm normal anyways) to tell people about Him as well.

Renegade: Again, it is true that God will forgive a person of anything as long as they ask for forgiveness and mean it when they do. A person should also try NOT to sin anymore once they are forgiven of their sins. It's impossible to, but if God just sees the person living the same life they've been living, then he's not going to do much for the person. That person will still go to Heaven because they WANT forgiveness for their sins, but they shouldn't be surprised when they find that their life on Earth isn't going to get any better unless they try to make it better along with God's guidance. Oh and btw, you'll be saying different about not asking God for forgiveness if you do end up in Hell for eternity. That's quite a price to pay just to live some 90 (or less) years on Earth rejecting Him so you can control your own life. Honestly it just seems to me that the choice between Heaven or Hell shouldn't be that hard of a thing.

Hmmm. There is this thing on my mind that gets me

Very often, very fanatic religious people, if I may say like PsychoEwok, state every minor detail of God's will and intention as facts.
"God wants you to do this" "God did not make you to do that".
You see that often. I'm sorry but that annoys me. You have an answer to every question, not everything quoted from the bible, yet you know THAT is what God wants/means.

How do you know? Did God come down and explain to you (and not to me)? can't be cuz he can't have told you a story big enough to cover all the possible questions.

So please, is this YOUR INTERPRETATION of God, or what's the deal? Can't you just say "I believe God made us to worship him" instead of "God made us to worship him and that's it final".

That kind of fanatism moves toward fundamentalism. Hope not to offend you PsychoEwok.