*puts his historian gloves on*

By no way I'm discounting Soviet effort in beating the Germans.

But by no means Russians did most of the work to beat the Germans. Sacrificed most lives, yes. Contributed most of the war effort? Debatable.

Arguably, if Germany didn't keep so many divisions in France in case Allies did invade France, Russia would have been in so much more trouble trying to fight Germany's full war machine.

WW2 was a collective effort to win against Germany, no nation's contribution was so great to claim the sole, or even most of the credit.

Anyways, this is so off topic, and I'd rather keep this thread stay on topic.

Feel free to PM me, or msn if you want to continue this. (for the record, I am a history major, with special interest in WW2)

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree But by no means Russians did most of the work to beat the Germans. Sacrificed most lives, yes. Contributed most of the war effort? Debatable.

imo they did, if russia was to lose there is a high chance you'd be speaking german right now. Again, i posted a nice documentary, take a look when you have time.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin imo they did, if russia was to lose there is a high chance you'd be speaking german right now. Again, i posted a nice documentary, take a look when you have time.

+1.. the North American allies only joined in much later, when it was evident that the Nazis were losing

otherwise, most of the war was fought by the Soviets and their European allies

I take great interest in that time period, and watched a ton of different documentaries about it

anyway! /end hijack

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quote:

Originally posted by FunkyCrew +1.. the North American allies only joined in much later, when it was evident that the Nazis were losing

exactly, they got afraid that Soviets would occupy most of the Europe and turn it into an even stronger superpower than the nazis.

quote:

Originally posted by geroin exactly, they got afraid that Soviets would occupy most of the Europe and turn it into an even stronger superpower than the nazis.

I'm sorry. I can't resist

North America consists of 3 nations

Canada: Declared war on Germany 10 Sept 1939
USA: Germany declares war on USA Dec 1941
Mexico: neutral throughout the war IIRC.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by geroin 23,600,000 of Russian (Soviet) Casualties

Russians have slaughtered similar numbers of themselves...

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Last edited by rabbitjoker on Jul-25-2007 at 21:01

quote:

Originally posted by geroin imo they did, if russia was to lose there is a high chance you'd be speaking german right now. Again, i posted a nice documentary, take a look when you have time.

this is perhaps a fair comment...but isn't it also fair to say that without the assistance of the Allies, the same could be true?

I have not viewed your documentary, but is anyone honestly suggesting that without the other Allies, Russia alone would likely have defeated Germany? Even Russia and it's European allies? Suggesting Canada didn't do much at all is a slap in the face to our veterans and those who died in the war.

I think it's as foolish for some to suggest that the Russians "mainly" defeated Germany as it is for others to discount the incredible Russian contribution and sacrifice in WWII.

I think most historical accounts point to a unified Allied effort being a major reason for victory as it forced the Germans to fight battles on multiple fronts, no?

anyway...back to the Afghanistan topic at hand...carry on

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT this is perhaps a fair comment...but isn't it also fair to say that without the assistance of the Allies, the same could be true? I have not viewed your documentary, but is anyone honestly suggesting that without the other Allies, Russia alone would likely have defeated Germany? Even Russia and it's European allies? Suggesting Canada didn't do much at all is a slap in the face to our veterans and those who died in the war. I think it's as foolish for some to suggest that the Russians "mainly" defeated Germany as it is for others to discount the incredible Russian contribution and sacrifice in WWII. I think most historical accounts point to a unified Allied effort being a major reason for victory as it forced the Germans to fight battles on multiple fronts, no?

i did not say that canadian veterans did nothing, i said that canadian history books are mostly based on canadian/american achievements in the war when there were much more important things happening in europe.

Total deaths:

United States: 418,500
United Kingdom: 450,400
Soviet Union: 23,600,000

this is including the civilians, i mean its quite obvious who did most of the work.

"but is anyone honestly suggesting that without the other Allies, Russia alone would likely have defeated Germany?"

i think it would.

"I have not viewed your documentary"

you should

some more stats for you:

Last edited by geroin on Jul-25-2007 at 21:20

I mean no respect to Russian war dead, Russia is huge and has most population in Europe, so their numbers would be huge compared to other European nations. Russia also has many more men to spare so used raw numbers to try to fight the Germans. (pretty much near suicide attacks in a lot of cases)

I don't discredit that Russia sacrificed the most people, but that does not mean they were fighting the most effective.

Numbers can be deceptive.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree I don't discredit that Russia sacrificed the most people, but that does not mean they were fighting the most effective. Numbers can be deceptive.

so who was fighting the most effective? I don't think you know much about Soviet's military strategies and their massive achievements... well it's obvious, they don't teach that here in history class..