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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Some NSA News (hope they're not tapping me right now...)
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

quote:
Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
How do you know how imperceptable and MINUTE they are?? The administration blocks EVERY investigation lately by not giving the Justice Department clearance. I mean, that's why the probe into the wiretapping got shut down. You blindly follow someone who you've seen down the most perilous road. What do they have to hide? Do they really distrust the Justice Department to leak info? I mean, they didn't ascend that high easily.


I have personally been involved with some pretty heavy-duty legal issues via our Justice System, and no, I don't trust the Justice System to be able to keep things under wraps! I've seen lawyers leak things to each other, all to benefit some pretty shady clientele!

It's not an Intel Community, it's a Justice System. People in the Intel Community get security clearances for a reason. Once information is out of their area of expertise and protection, leaks are EASILY possible.

But this aside theory, I'm willing to bet that;

A.) The government isn't listening in on any calls that aren't national security related, because they have neither the time nor man-power to bother with anything else in this new age of war on terrorism...not to mention all the out-cry that there would be if they tried to convict someone of something other than terrorism using wire-tapping.

B.) They need to keep what they know to themselves for the sake of national security.

C.) The U.S. Government ultimately has MY best interests as a U.S. Citizen at heart.

quote:
Originally posted by Sunflower
At what point would you say to yourself "Woah I don't think I'm comfortable with that"


I'd have to say when they start using wire-taps to lock us up for all the minute things that everyone on here is so fearful of.

But until that day happens, I'm not going to worry about it, because I seriously doubt it will EVER come, and in the meantime I'll feel more at ease knowing that the government is more than likely, getting better at catching the real threats to our freedom; Terrorists.

Last edited by donnybrasco on May-12-2006 at 06:39

Old Post May-12-2006 06:27  United States
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Spacey Orange
still loves trance.



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: California

Here is the text of the speech this morning:

quote:
After September the 11th, I vowed to the American people that our government would do everything within the law to protect them against another terrorist attack. As part of this effort, I authorized the National Security Agency to intercept the international communications of people with known links to al-Qaida and related terrorist organizations. In other words, if al-Qaida or their associates are making calls into the United States or out of the United States, we want to know what they're saying.

Today there are new claims about other ways we are tracking down al-Qaida to prevent attacks on America. I want to make some important points about what the government is doing and what the government is not doing.

First, our international activities strictly target al-Qaida and their known affiliates. Al-Qaida is our enemy, and we want to know their plans. Second, the government does not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval. Third, the intelligence activities I authorized are lawful and have been briefed to appropriate members of Congress, both Republican and Democrat. Fourth, the privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities.

We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans. Our efforts are focused on links to al-Qaida and their known affiliates. So far we've been very successful in preventing another attack on our soil.

As a general matter, every time sensitive intelligence is leaked, it hurts our ability to defeat this enemy. Our most important job is to protect the American people from another attack, and we will do so within the laws of our country.

Thank you.


He first said:

quote:
Today there are new claims about other ways we are tracking down al-Qaida to prevent attacks on America. I want to make some important points about what the government is doing and what the government is not doing.


I'm assuming that the 'new claims' he speaks of are the allegation made in the USA Today article that the NSA is compiling a database of phone numbers that millions of americans call domestically. As far as I know, the allegation is compiling numbers, NOT listening to phone calls.


but he goes on to say:

quote:
Second, the government does not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval.


Recall that the allegation was compiling numbers not listening to phone calls. Why not address the allegation? He's obvuously trying to confuse the public that the issue is about listening to phone calls when it's not. That's why he can confidently say

quote:
Second, the government does not listen to domestic phone calls without court approval.


But recall, the issue is gathering data.




He also goes on to say:

quote:
Third, the intelligence activities I authorized are lawful and have been briefed to appropriate members of Congress, both Republican and Democrat.


Pardon me, but what supreme court decision or federal law gives rise to a suspension of our constitutional rights when the executive branch notifies the legislative branch that they are going to infringe on those rights? Can someone cite the case or federal law that creates that exception.

Saying that something is lawful does not make it so. Saying that one briefed congress does not make it lawful either. Can someone really defend this defense?

But there is more:

quote:
We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans.


No one claimed that his NSA is mining the personal lives of anyone. He obfuscates again.


Can any conservative here really defend this speech?


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Old Post May-12-2006 06:28  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

^^^But that's exactly what everyone THINKS is going on. He's addressing the paranoia and the hype, imho.

Old Post May-12-2006 06:42  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
But this aside theory, I'm willing to bet that;

A.) The government isn't listening in on any calls that aren't national security related, because they have neither the time nor man-power to bother with anything else in this new age of war on terrorism...not to mention all the out-cry that there would be if they tried to convict someone of something other than terrorism using wire-tapping.


How much do you want to bet? From previous postings:

Two years ago, Ashcroft rescinded a 1995 guideline directing that information obtained through a national security letter about a U.S. citizen or resident “shall be destroyed by the FBI and not further disseminated” if it proves “not relevant to the purposes for which it was collected.” Ashcroft’s new order was that “the FBI shall retain” all records it collects and “may disseminate” them freely among federal agencies.

The same order directed the FBI to develop “data mining” technology to probe for hidden links among the people in its growing cache of electronic files. According to an FBI status report, the bureau’s office of intelligence began operating in January 2004 a new Investigative Data Warehouse, based on the same Oracle technology used by the CIA. The CIA is generally forbidden to keep such files on Americans.
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=303532

quote:

C.) The U.S. Government ultimately has MY best interests as a U.S. Citizen at heart.



Wow. Simply wow. You're a democrat right? I thought I remember you saying you were libertarian but that's about as far away from libertarian as I can imagine ... asides from being the government.


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Last edited by occrider on May-12-2006 at 06:51

Old Post May-12-2006 06:44  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

1995 versus post 9-11? Do you even have to ask why the rules have changed.

I'm certainly not a Democrat, lol.

So you think that the U.S. Government and all of it's employees (who are, after all, not American citizens themselves, but are in fact mindless minions following every order by the Government to subjugate their fellow Americans), is at LEAST as interested in stopping terrorism as they are in bringing us all to our knees via a grand conspiracy system...which starts with compiling data on phone usage, soon to be followed by wire-tapping, which leads to millions of people ending up as what exactly???

Where is Trancer X and his conspiracy web-site links? He'd be eating this crap up.

Last edited by donnybrasco on May-12-2006 at 07:08

Old Post May-12-2006 06:53  United States
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Spacey Orange
still loves trance.



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: California

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
^^^But that's exactly what everyone THINKS is going on. He's addressing the paranoia and the hype, imho.


hmmm no, he's avoiding the issue. what about the other question that i posed?

What supreme court case or federal statute creates an exception to constitutional rights when the president advises several members of congress that he's suspending some american's rights?


or are you going to avoid the question too? perhaps another bush loyalist can tackle this question.


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Old Post May-12-2006 06:55  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

I am not THAT familiar with Federal Law that I can site you cases, but I don't think he's saying that he's doing this. You're fracturing his speech so much that it's losing it's inter-related meaning to you.

Old Post May-12-2006 06:59  United States
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Spacey Orange
still loves trance.



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: California

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
I am not THAT familiar with Federal Law that I can site you cases, but I don't think he's saying that he's doing this. You're fracturing his speech so much that it's losing it's inter-related meaning to you.


it's called critical analysis around here or critical reasoning or deconstruct, but i won't hold that against you.

in any case, i don't believe such a law exists. given that he repeats it so much, i'm sure many americans believe that such an exception exists.

this is a sad state of affairs when president uses rhetorical machinations to confuse the public and garner support for his arguably illegal acts. the founding fathers must be looking at the US in complete sadness and dismay.


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Old Post May-12-2006 07:10  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
1995 versus post 9-11? Do you even have to ask why the rules have changed.

I'm certainly not a Democrat, lol.

So you think that the U.S. Government and all of it's employees (who are, after all, not American citizens themselves, but are in fact mindless minions following every order by the Government to subjugate their fellow Americans), is at LEAST as interested in stopping terrorism as they are in bringing us all to our knees via a grand conspiracy system...which starts with compiling data on phone usage, soon to be followed by wire-tapping, which leads to millions of people to ending up as what exactly???

Where is Trancer X and his conspiracy web-site links? He'd be eating this crap up.


Sigh ... this is what you posted:

quote:
A.) The government isn't listening in on any calls that aren't national security related, because they have neither the time nor man-power to bother with anything else in this new age of war on terrorism...not to mention all the out-cry that there would be if they tried to convict someone of something other than terrorism using wire-tapping.


This is what I posted:

quote:

Two years ago, Ashcroft rescinded a 1995 guideline directing that information obtained through a national security letter about a U.S. citizen or resident “shall be destroyed by the FBI and not further disseminated” if it proves “not relevant to the purposes for which it was collected.” Ashcroft’s new order was that “the FBI shall retain” all records it collects and “may disseminate” them freely among federal agencies.


Do you not understand what the fuck is going on here? I can only conclude as such since you relied on a red-herring and obfuscation to substantiate your argument as opposed to actually refuting my argument (the year of the legislation ffs ... hey dumbass the bill of rights was passed pre 9/11 ergo we should probably ignore that right??). Here, allow me to put it in words such that you can understand:

Contrary to your argument that the government does NOT listen in on calls unrelated to national security, THEY DO. Contrary to your argument that wouldn't use that data if it were unrrelated to terrorism, THEY DO. Why the fuck else would the attorney general rescind an order to destroy data unrrelated to terrorism and retain the right to freely distribute that data among federal agencies? How fucking daft are you? Donny ... this is really getting tedious. How many times do we have to go through this same procedure where you half-ass address my arguments and I pull you through the ringer? If you have an argument put some goddamn time into it to back it up. Otherwise don't bother replying to any of my posts.

And you're not a democrat? Well christ you certainly surprised me with that statement that you made.


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Last edited by occrider on May-12-2006 at 07:19

Old Post May-12-2006 07:11  United States
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donnybrasco
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: L.A.

I have not used personal attacks aganist you OC? Why have you stooped to doing it?

I stopped reading your post at "dumb-ass".

So if this is to be a thread of profanity, I'm not going to debate you anymore about this issue. Instead, I will just return your verbal offerings, with one of my own;

FUCK YOU!!

Have a nice day, dumb-ass.

Old Post May-12-2006 07:48  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

he called you a dumbass, coz you dont respond to the issues raised by other posters. if someone is gonna take the time to read your half-assed replies & respond, at least have the common decency to do the same. this thread just reads like everyone is handing you your arse, and you just wander around ignoring the thrashing that youre getting. its just intellectually dishonest


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Old Post May-12-2006 08:11  Australia
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
FDR was one of the worst presidents at preserving civil liberties and the spirit of democracy. However, a great president at fighting a war (something I'm afraid I give Bush no credit at all)

i agree to an extent, but you shouldn't be afraid. either give credit for whats been done, or no credit at all. let history decide like you've done with FDR.

Old Post May-12-2006 08:15  United States
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Some NSA News (hope they're not tapping me right now...)
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