People are going to like what they like.

I happen to be one of the few to not have my head stuck up my ass about it either way. (I liked pretty much every clip posted in this thread so far, heh. On both sides.)

I understand Ishkur and Psy-T's point about the name of the genre.

What is now called "psy-trance" should probably be called "trance" and what is now "trance" should probably be called something else.

One may be stupid (ignorant, rather) for thinking what is now considered trance is actually trance, but one is not stupid for liking what is now considered trance.

< /thread >

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael What is now called "psy-trance" should probably be called "trance" and what is now "trance" should probably be called something else. One may be stupid (ignorant, rather) for thinking what is now considered trance is actually trance, but one is not stupid for liking what is now considered trance.

I disagree. What they're reffering to is the kind of music that doesn't pay attention to itself, and puts you in a trance by being repetitive and hypnotic. A trance is any altered state of mind, not just this particular altered state of mind. What "modern" trance tries to represent are feelings of euphoria and ecstacy.

Since we're going on definitions here;

quote:

An altered state of consciousness is any state which is significantly different from a normative waking beta wave state. The expression was coined in the 1970s by Carlos Castaneda and describes induced changes in one's mental state, almost always temporary. A synonymous phrase is "altered states of awareness". An altered state of consciousness can come about accidentally through fever, sleep deprivation, starvation, oxygen deprivation, nitrogen narcosis (deep diving), or a traumatic accident. Intentionally it can sometimes be reached by the use of a sensory deprivation tank or mind-control techniques, hypnosis, meditation, prayer, or disciplines (e.g. Mantra Meditation, Yoga, Sufism or Surat Shabda Yoga). It is sometimes attained through the ingestion of psychoactive drugs such as alcohol and opiates, or psychoactive plants and chemicals such as LSD, 2C-I, peyote, marijuana, mescaline, MDMA, psychedelic mushrooms, and datura (Jimson weed). Naturally occurring altered states of consciousness include dreams, euphoria, ecstasy, psychosis as well as purported premonitions, out-of-body experiences, and channeling.

While I'd agree that they should be considered different things, they both fit equally as well under the umbrella term "trance".

Sorry, I should have phrased it better. Perhaps it could fit under the umbrella term of "trance", but the fact remains that trance originally started as that repetitive, hypnotic genre. It's an argument based on the origin of the genre, and the genre still being applied to a style that is now totally different.

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael It's an argument based on the origin of the genre, and the genre still being applied to a style that is now totally different.

... is it?

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 I am speaking of course about today’s trance and not trying to resurrect anything from the 90’s and early 00’s.

...

In this case, I don't see how the origins of the genre are relevant.

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael Sorry, I should have phrased it better. Perhaps it could fit under the umbrella term of "trance", but the fact remains that trance originally started as that repetitive, hypnotic genre. It's an argument based on the origin of the genre, and the genre still being applied to a style that is now totally different.

wtf, f.e. Prydz is still house despite the fact he does not perform at the Warehouse club in Chicago and his name´s not Frankie Knuckles.

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian Objectivity is possible as long as you accept everyone's definition of the word. So if listening to elvis presley puts me in a trance, then it's trance music. So far you've been doing the opposite. You've been defining trance by your vision of it and yours alone.

accepting a definition to something is already allowing some form of bias, and hence subjectiveness.

as for the rest of your argument in this post, refer to my next post.

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Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T accepting a definition to something is already allowing some form of bias, and hence subjectiveness.

Subjectivity is defining something by the subject (the self). If you have an objective definition, then there can't be any bias. For instance, if you define trance as music that goes unn-tss unn-tss unn-tss, then it's completely objective. Either the music goes unn-tss unn-tss unn-tss, or it doesn't, and that is true in all cases, because this characteristic of the sound is not affected in any way by the subject.

On the other hand, if you define trance music as music that is entrancing, then it becomes a subjective definition, because 'entrancing' is something that is dependant on the subject, and thus, can vary from one person to another.

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian I disagree. What they're reffering to is the kind of music that doesn't pay attention to itself,

hmm? elaborate please.

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian ...A trance is any altered state of mind, not just this particular altered state of mind... Since we're going on definitions here;

that's what trance referrs to (according to wikipedia), not what it is.
wiki's definition of trance is:

1. daze, unconscious condition
   
2. type of music (see here)

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian Subjectivity is defining something by the subject (the self). If you have an objective definition, then there can't be any bias. For instance, if you define trance as music that goes unn-tss unn-tss unn-tss, then it's completely objective. Either the music goes unn-tss unn-tss unn-tss, or it doesn't, and that is true in all cases, because this characteristic of the sound is not affected in any way by the subject.

yet you're still choosing a particular definition over another. hence bias.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

Personally I find it very rare for any trance songs today to acually put you in a trance. However more of the progressive stuff such as Ticon and Vibrasphere definatly put me out. Also the same with most house and trance made from 1990-1996.

quote:

Originally posted by paulandrews of course it should. but you can´t compare chocolate (as there´s absolutely clear it´s a word for some highly specific kind of "material" or "food") with trance (which, in case of music, is art, and talking about definitions it´s a state of mind - what makes it highly subjective then). chocolate is a material thing, art´s not. art has a space to evolve and change and how we name it is only up to us cause it´s subjective.

wee, now we're getting into real aesthetics territory

what observation leads you to believe art is not a material thing?
you can see, feel, smell, and taste (to an extent ) a painting...
you can hear, see (representations of), and feel music...

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)

quote:

hmm? elaborate please.

I meant music that doesn't draw attention - as in non-melodic, repetitive.

quote:

that's what trance referrs to (according to wikipedia), not what it is. wiki's definition of trance is:

Which are essentially just another way of saying what I said. It's a state of mind that differs from the usual beta state (the normal state)

quote:

they are not equally trance inducing, therefore i disagree.

They are not equally trance inducing to you. Other people can be entranced by modern trance, and even moreso than by the music you find entrancing. Thus, like I said, it's a subjective definition. You can't say something isn't trance because you don't find it entrancing. That's very short-shighted.