Opus, I don't know what made you think that came from Malkin (bless her beautiful soul), but it didn't. You might want to adjust the teflon bolts in your own foil hat-I think one of 'em is deep in your medulla oblongata.

Frankly, I don't know why you and so many other left-wing America haters are so convinced that Islamofacists have changed their stripes after all of these years. Instead you prefer to think this is all new conflict that is a result of George W. Bush suddenly trying to rock the global peace boat. Yeah...whatever. It's OK for you to convict marines of a cold, merciless massacre based on the unsubstantiated allegations of one chickenshit senator (cause they came from the DoD right--even though nobody knows the specific details that he's talking about. Just the fact that he says it came from the DoD is enough), but you choose to ignore substantiated facts when it would support the opposing viewpoint. Since when did the left have any respect for the DoD? Since they realized they could opportunistically manipulate certain data to push their agenda. Yay! Peace at any price!

Last edited by Shakka on Aug-03-2006 at 18:11

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Opus, I don't know what made you think that came from Malkin (bless her beautiful soul), but it didn't. You might want to adjust the teflon bolts in your own foil hat-I think one of 'em is deep in your medulla oblongata.

No, I know it didn't come from Malkin. I'm dumb, but not dumb enough to read who the author was. I was, however, categorizing that piece along with the other conspiracy artists on the matter with the ringleader, who happens to be Malkin at this time.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I realize you're a socialist Smiley, but please, let's be reasonable and read posts for what they really are, rather than jump on the most ridiculous interpretation. The link you gave was on a demonstration in Lebanon, whose people were the actual victims affected by the Syrian occupation. The burning of mosques (if we think of the same things) are commited by the very same Iraqis who are victims of the bombings/shootings. However, the enthusiastic demonstrations against Israel are not restricted to only the victims of the Israelis (viz. the Palestinians and the Lebanese). To say it in another way: You examples leave me cold. They are not examples of shows of solidarity with innocents, but examples of Arabs protesting because they are the victims themselves. Find me some nice examples of Arabs protesting the plight of innocents, and where the oppressor/agressor isn't either Israel or the US, and then you might be able to sway me.

Well there are just as many anti-Israel/American protests over here as there are in the Middle East so it's a mute point. You also get Cuban protests over Cuba, Chinese protests over China and Jewish protests over Israel. People tend to care more about there own, nothing particularly unusual about that and certainly not exclusive to Muslims (and Arabs) who see themselves as brothers.

quote:

There are other ways of exposing of regimes than coups. I think that both Lebanon, Ukraine, and Russia were examples of people that rose up against both the military and the ruling elite.

Well Russia crumbled because of economics, the Lebanese political system is exactly the same as it was previously and I have no idea about Ukraine. However, I do understand your point but I was not suggesting that these regimes should be overthrown by coups, just that those regimes experience with coups in the past is the reason they are particularly well protected from uprisings etc (as I assume you were refering to in your examples)

quote:

Btw. can you quantify that last comment of yours in any way? How does the US help stabilizing these regimes? What threats are you seeing that US aid is helping combat?

Well, the Middle East is the most strategically important region in the world because of oil. I don't think anyone can doubt that. We saw in the 70s what a powerful weapon oil can be to the world's economy. In the wrong hands (read enemies of America), oil control would be a huge threat to the stability of America. For that reason, America likes to keep these regimes on their side with their generous aid. Now that in itself is not helping to stabalise these regimes (well, I suppose American military technology to these regimes does) per se, but if you can understand the importance of having friendly regimes controlling the flow of oil, then you can understand how America would never let these countries (and therefore control over the oil) fall into the hands of groups that are unfriendly to American interests (such as the Islamists who would be/are the ones trying to topple these regimes). You asked for an example and the best one I can give you is the first Gulf War. Saddam Hussain attempted to invade and conqure the entire Middle Eastern oil supply to establish the pan-Arabist's dream empire. He started in Kuwait and next on his list was Saudi Arabia (and presumably Iran who has the same amount of oil as Iraq and they share that history). Well we know Saddam never got to Saudi Arabia and we all know why...

quote:

You'll have to point me to this one. Can't seem to find it.

That's what I took...

quote:

The main reason why you have incompetent leaders is because you fail to engage in getting rid of them. You waste all your energy raging about the great satans (US, Israel, and cartoons), rather than channeling that energy into positive developments for your countries.

...to mean?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well there are just as many anti-Israel/American protests over here as there are in the Middle East so it's a mute point. You also get Cuban protests over Cuba, Chinese protests over China and Jewish protests over Israel. People tend to care more about there own, nothing particularly unusual about that and certainly not exclusive to Muslims (and Arabs) who see themselves as brothers.

Then you're missing my point. My point was that Arabs seem only to care about innocent victims (including Arabs) when these are victims of Israel or the US.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well Russia crumbled because of economics, the Lebanese political system is exactly the same as it was previously and I have no idea about Ukraine.

I was thinking about the october coup back in 91 (was it?), where the Moscovites overpowered the tanks of the military in a very peaceful way. And I was thinking about the "Cedar revolution" when Lebanon got out of the grasp of Syria. And the "Orange revolution" of Ukraine.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley However, I do understand your point but I was not suggesting that these regimes should be overthrown by coups, just that those regimes experience with coups in the past is the reason they are particularly well protected from uprisings etc (as I assume you were refering to in your examples)

I'm not saying that its easy to get rid of a brutal government, like that of Mubarak. But it seems a whole lot easier and sympathetic than "driving the Israelis into the ocean".

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well, the Middle East is the most strategically important region in the world because of oil. I don't think anyone can doubt that. We saw in the 70s what a powerful weapon oil can be to the world's economy. In the wrong hands (read enemies of America), oil control would be a huge threat to the stability of America. For that reason, America likes to keep these regimes on their side with their generous aid. Now that in itself is not helping to stabalise these regimes (well, I suppose American military technology to these regimes does) per se, but if you can understand the importance of having friendly regimes controlling the flow of oil, then you can understand how America would never let these countries (and therefore control over the oil) fall into the hands of groups that are unfriendly to American interests (such as the Islamists who would be/are the ones trying to topple these regimes). You asked for an example and the best one I can give you is the first Gulf War. Saddam Hussain attempted to invade and conqure the entire Middle Eastern oil supply to establish the pan-Arabist's dream empire. He started in Kuwait and next on his list was Saudi Arabia (and presumably Iran who has the same amount of oil as Iraq and they share that history). Well we know Saddam never got to Saudi Arabia and we all know why...

I agree with what you write, but (apart from the military aid, perhaps) I don't think it justifies saying that the US "stabilises" the regimes or, more drastically, "keeps" them in place, as is often claimed by whining Arabs.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley That's what I took... ...to mean?

No no. I was asking what your "comment above" was? Not mine. Anyway, seems like it wasn't important after all.

Just wanted to comment on the great quality of posts in this thread.
Its quiet a world of different that other thread was a week ago...

Nice and refreshing.


Shakka, interesting point, thanks for posting the article. I wouldn't be suprised if something like that was staged, but then again as Opus raises it sounds eerly too familiar to the critiques of the 9-11 WTC collapsing, which I flately reject.

The truth will most likely come out in the following weeks.

If it does come out though very evidently that the claim that it was staged is true, most likely no one in the Arab world will report it as such (Arab world still believes in the "Jenin Massacre" several odd years ago which was nothing of the sort) and I am sure no nation will apologizes for condemning Israel on the attack either.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Shakka, interesting point, thanks for posting the article. I wouldn't be suprised if something like that was staged, but then again as Opus raises it sounds eerly too familiar to the critiques of the 9-11 WTC collapsing, which I flately reject. The truth will most likely come out in the following weeks.

Admittedly I got pretty defensive with regard to Opus' offensive, and I too tend to be dismissive of conspiracy theories. However, the article makes light of the fact that this is not a new tactic (rather, it's been a chief MO from time to time) which makes the so-called "conspiracy" much more plausible.

Best way to understand the actions of other cultures, is to study their ideology's and why they think the way they do. Until then, we ( westerners, at least most ) will look and lay ignorant on the bubble of arrogance wanting to impose our ideology onto the strong cultured middle eastern region. Smart huh .

___________________
Upcoming:

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quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Then you're missing my point. My point was that Arabs seem only to care about innocent victims (including Arabs) when these are victims of Israel or the US.

Well lets say are right, they still have a valid point no? You also have to realise that apart from in Lebanon, people in the Middle East are simply not free to protest against certain issues (oppression of Arabs at the hands of Arab regimes for example) I might also suggest that the people who care the most about the plight of others are the more well off (Westerners) who's lives are significantly better off than others

quote:

I was thinking about the october coup back in 91 (was it?), where the Moscovites overpowered the tanks of the military in a very peaceful way. And I was thinking about the "Cedar revolution" when Lebanon got out of the grasp of Syria. And the "Orange revolution" of Ukraine. I'm not saying that its easy to get rid of a brutal government, like that of Mubarak. But it seems a whole lot easier and sympathetic than "driving the Israelis into the ocean".

I've forgotten what the point is here now so I'll leave it!!

quote:

I agree with what you write, but (apart from the military aid, perhaps) I don't think it justifies saying that the US "stabilises" the regimes or, more drastically, "keeps" them in place, as is often claimed by whining Arabs.

My point was simply that America will go out of it's way to defend these regimes against threats that exist, or may exist in the future as American domestic stability will be directly affected if these countries fall into hostile hands

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX Best way to understand the actions of other cultures, is to study their ideology's and why they think the way they do. Until then, we ( westerners, at least most ) will look and lay ignorant on the bubble of arrogance wanting to impose our ideology onto the strong cultured middle eastern region. Smart huh .

Interesting as it may be, I notice that the only source (the one you use) to make these allegations is http://web.israelinsider.com/

Now call me cynical but...

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Frankly, I don't know why you and so many other left-wing America haters are so convinced that Islamofacists have changed their stripes after all of these years.

And frankly, I don't understand how you and so many other Right-wingnutters who wrap themselves around the flag and call anyone who disagrees with your nutbag extremist viewpoints of neoconservative world-police as "America haters" or "unpatriotic" and its ill, while at the same time do so very fucking little about what's really important to protect our country and in the ACTUAL interest of our own National Security. You guys have a pretty substantially piss-poor record of doing what's best to protect our country at all from Islamo-fascism.

But then again, I always forget, much like our President, exactly how you guys did so well catching bin Laden in the first place.

Shall we go further into detail, or can we try to do away with the bullshit labelling and discuss the Qana incident on its merits only? I know that's difficult to do for many Wingnutters - discussing in detail on evidence given, but again I attain a certain Old School amount of respect for you and continue to hope for the best.

quote:

Instead you prefer to think this is all new conflict that is a result of George W. Bush suddenly trying to rock the global peace boat. Yeah...whatever.

Could you point out specifically where I have mentioned anything of the sort - that this Qana incident is somehow related to Bush's ineptitude or deliberate necessity to screw over global peace? I'd be hard pressed to find such words coming from me - perhaps you can?

quote:

It's OK for you to convict marines of a cold, merciless massacre based on the unsubstantiated allegations of one chickenshit senator (cause they came from the DoD right--even though nobody knows the specific details that he's talking about.

Oh I see, you're combining our argument from the other thread in conjunction with this. Okay, a bit of a nonrelated topic in my opinion, but I'll go with it for now.

I know, a chickenshit Senator who just so happened to have seen a few wars in his own right. I guess that speaks volumes to the likes of the 101st Fighting Keyboardists on the Wingnut Blogs who've seen so many wars in their own right, huh?

We can go after Murtha as the lawsuit claims because he defamed that soldier so badly. Despite the fact that all evidence up to this point supports the claims of Murtha which came from the DoD itself. I guess we can continue pointing our little Keyboard barrel at him.

But are you prepared to point that gun of yours at one of your own? Guess who else has defamed them?:

quote:

Rep. John Kline (R-Minn.), a retired Marine helicopter pilot, said in an interview he thought Hagee was doing the right thing. "I was saddened, surprised and outraged that this could happen," Kline said. He said he thought the incident would be regarded as "a horrific aberration" for the Marines. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6052501732.html

and

quote:

Rep. John Kline (R-Minn.), a retired Marine colonel, said there was clearly an attempt to cover up the incident by those involved. But he said he did not think the Marine command was slow in investigating. "There is no question that the Marines involved, those doing the shooting, they were busy in lying about it and covering it up — there is no question about it," Kline said. http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2006/05/lance-cpl.html

and

quote:

Representative John Kline is a Republican from Minnesota. He said, "When you have Marines who have behaved so abominably as to allegedly shoot Iraqi civilians I'm not surprised that they would lie about it and cover it up." http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?...47-c589c01ca7bf

Damn, that's one traitorous GOP bastard you got there. Why does a Republican like him hate America so much?

Much more:

quote:

"It appears that the soldiers just lost it, their leaders weren't there to stop them, and they went on a rampage," commented CBS News Military Analyst Retired Army Col. Mitch Mitchell. "when one went, the others went and there's no way to stop something like that once it gets started." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006...in1665030.shtml

Traitorous bastard that retired Army Col.! What nerve!

Oh damn, here's some more traitors:

quote:

On March 10, the findings were given to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Peter Pace, the first Marine ever to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Rumsfeld told aides that the case promised to be a major problem. He called it "really, really bad -- as bad or worse than Abu Ghraib," recalled one Pentagon official. This is just My Lai all over again," Vaughan Taylor, a former military prosecutor and instructor in criminal law at the Army's school for military lawyers, said last week. "It's going to do us enormous damage." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6052501732.html

quote:

A senior defense official told the Associated Press last month that evidence points to unprovoked killings by the Marines involved.

Chickenshit anonymous sources the whole lot of 'em!

So I wonder why that lawyer who BTW refuses to acknowledge who is funding his time is only going after Murtha? Gee, this wouldn't be yet another fucking partisan court campaign now, would it?

I mean, you GOPers are so new to partisan court shenanigans, aren't you?

I wonder if that lawyer will be tacking on your GOP John Kline as well as pursuing those other military individuals who DEFAMED his client as equally as aggressive as Murtha? What are the Vegas odds on that one, do you think?

quote:

Just the fact that he says it came from the DoD is enough), but you choose to ignore substantiated facts when it would support the opposing viewpoint.

And those "substantiated" facts are.....?

quote:

Since when did the left have any respect for the DoD?

Since when did the Right actually support our fucking troops by giving them the proper body armour, vehicle armour, proper troop numbers, and efficient post-war planning to have a successful war campaign in Iraq, rather than the whole fucking thing blowing up into a Civil War, or on the brink which is now being acknowledged by our military as well as others:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3053242.stm
http://www.upi.com/InternationalInt...03-091327-1609r
???????????????

quote:

Since they realized they could opportunistically manipulate certain data to push their agenda. Yay! Peace at any price!

I'll make you a deal, champ - when you can actually demonstrate that your Keyboardist Fighting Brigade can actually come up with a viable plan for peace through constant war in all the Middle East- I'll switch sides in a heartbeat.

I realize diplomacy is pretty fucking foreign to you guys, or even having verifiable evidence to support your pretenses to invade and fuck up a region at will, and it seems to be a task that even Condi has no fucking clue how to perform, but it does work from time to time. Crazy thinking, I know.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Interesting as it may be, I notice that the only source (the one you use) to make these allegations is http://web.israelinsider.com/ Now call me cynical but...

Mmm no ? ... I mean its easier to understand and learn of other culture, to then proceed into actions, communication, before making comments and actions ( that would in some instances create chaos or just fuel terrorism, what the US actually does ) . A small example..planting a Democratic government on the divided country of Iraq, dont tell me there's no civil war about to irupt there.

___________________
Upcoming:

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