Well, I've been reading this thread with concern........ iammesol, you've put my mind at rest - what you've just said makes sense.

As I write this PvD just did a teeny weeny crunch on a mix on Fritz. I don't think I've ever been pleased to hear this sort of thing from the big guy...... long may it continue.

Jarv

That was an intelligent and well-reasoned response. Are you sure I am on TA?

Seriously though. Excellent explanation. You win at life, sir.

heres a few ways to look at it:

like swedish house man above said, Live does not "beatmatch for you" so to speak. you have to go through and painstakingly warp marker each track you play (if its a vinyl rip, its hell on earth) or otherwise you will trainwreck the old fashioned way. Since this is usually done beforehand (sometimes ill do it during a gig while im playing if i havent had time that day to warp all my new tracks for that night) there is usually some left over time between mixes, or downtime. you know how when you are using tables or cdjs you can sometimes get things beatmatched super quickly and there is all this downtime in between records? well with Live you can actually make constructive use of that downtime to plan effects, loops things, program, follow actions, edit clips, transpose keys, etc etc etc. whereas when you nail a mix early on cdjs or vinyl you have to stand there and act like you are doing something important: bob head acting like you are still beatmatching, turn knobs eq knobs nonsensically, strike a christ pose or two, stare at cd book, etc. so in my opinion the real difference is not in skill requirements but options.

as for the "barrier of entry", learning how to warp tracks properly in live, at least to me, is alot steeper learning curve than analog beatmatching is. Live is a strange creature that is hard for just anyone to make more than just basic use of. the dj market has always been oversaturated at the entry/local/internet level, especially with the rise of high speed internet. but think about the big djs...what made them so big? what separated them from the crowd? it is 99% of the time: great production work and clever marketing.

i think the backlash against laptop djing is normal. anytime there is a revolutionary change that so many people are either A) not willing to accept or adapt to or B) not able/willing to learn, then people are quick to call it a monster and point out its supposed inferiority or lack of genuineness (is that even a word?). But the hard truth is: things evolve, especially with the high technology influence in electronic music. if you want to stay in the game as an artist, you dont have to nessicarily change or jump on the bandwagon, but you should at least embrace what is happening and learn to see the positive in it.

Ableton is a new baby, and in 5 or 6 years it will evolve into something truely extraordinary. people will have developed incredible techniques that will push the boundaries of djing/production/live electronic music into something that will blur the lines between the 3 and create something we can only dream about wrapping our heads around.

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quote:

Originally posted by iammesol But... I still believe it's important though that people know how to beatmatch and program manually, because Live would've been retardedly confusing without learning to mix with hardware before.

I'm starting out skipping the whole process of doing it on hardware, and finding that, a lot of times, I've gotta sort of feel my way through things that're probably very easy to do with CD decks & a mixer (or even TTs) and that, thus, would be a lot more intuitive for somebody with that background than it might be for me (like the entire process of EQing).

It definitely seems like, from reading & looking at a lot of the comments & explanations of the features of each, that Live is the way to go & will be going forward, but at some point, I'd still like to get back & learn to do it the original way, if for nothing else, just for the fun of the simple/feel-based nature of it, as opposed to the completely mechanical & step-by-step, calculated way you've gotta operate to move through tracks in Live. It's probably not as tough for me (and, I'm sure, a lot of people on here) as it might be for some people, just because I grew up while computers were doing the same, so I've spent omy whole life working through new stuff without any explanations or help, and I spent a ton of time in music when I was younger, so I can pretty much just sit down & start learning by clicking all over for a few hours.

I still find something new every day, & it hasn't gotten old yet, even with months of playing around without even a controller. That's coming soon, though. I decided to hold off on that 'til I felt it was actually limiting what I could do, & wasn't just gonna be a toy I'd skip to before knowing what, specifically, I wanted to add, but couldn't without one.

Finally, just a side note, a lot of people complain about the fact that it's so easy to match two tracks up in Ableton, but I'd argue that while that's the case, that leaves you to focus your attention on so many greater things than simply preventing trainwrecks. Maybe that doesn't have the old school appeal that struggling with crappy turntables years ago does, but if you just listened to recordings of each, the latter would be infinitely more impressive.

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> S u s h i p u n k . P h o t o g r a p h y <

Blake_Jarrell: holy christ...another intelligent response. This makes a world of sense to me. Now you have me curious about learning these "newer" ways to mix. Let me say this: I can barely afford vinyl as it is!

Lets face it..... those that say vinyl isn't on it's way out are sorely mistaken.

It might continue for a time in hip hop, but it's days are numbered on this site.

Jarv

one of the things that makes a live rock band performance special is that the guys are up there sweating, concentrating, and exposing their soul. they display their great skill in operating musical instruments and that adds to the live experience.

with a live dj event, it doesnt require as much technical mechanical skill like actually playing instruments, but the trade off is you can play sounds that just aren't possible with instruments. you also are no longer limited to ancient instruments made of steel/wood/animal skin that we've been tired of hearing for the past century. a dj also exposes their soul through the music he plays, but with a deep non verbal esp type of way.

with laptop djing, i think its going one more step further away from the technical mechanical performance aspect of a live experience, and more towards the aspect of greater available spectrum of sounds. but where's the soul?

its hard to describe in words the aspect that is slowly being lost with a vinyl dj. for one thing, the analog sound. its well known there is nothing quite like the beauty of a diamond, well the same goes for nothing quite like the sound of a diamond, a diamond tip needle that is. secondly, the excitement from hearing such a massive sound from a delicately spinning record right before your eyes.

the vinyl vs cd debate is long dead by now. bring on the debate of the new millenium: laptop vs cd.

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DJ TORZ - dubstep portion of live set Mar 14th 2009

Has hawtin stopped using ableton for dj'ing live?

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell heres a few ways to look at it: like swedish house man above said, Live does not "beatmatch for you" so to speak. you have to go through and painstakingly warp marker each track you play (if its a vinyl rip, its hell on earth) or otherwise you will trainwreck the old fashioned way. Since this is usually done beforehand (sometimes ill do it during a gig while im playing if i havent had time that day to warp all my new tracks for that night) there is usually some left over time between mixes, or downtime. you know how when you are using tables or cdjs you can sometimes get things beatmatched super quickly and there is all this downtime in between records? well with Live you can actually make constructive use of that downtime to plan effects, loops things, program, follow actions, edit clips, transpose keys, etc etc etc. whereas when you nail a mix early on cdjs or vinyl you have to stand there and act like you are doing something important: bob head acting like you are still beatmatching, turn knobs eq knobs nonsensically, strike a christ pose or two, stare at cd book, etc. so in my opinion the real difference is not in skill requirements but options. as for the "barrier of entry", learning how to warp tracks properly in live, at least to me, is alot steeper learning curve than analog beatmatching is. Live is a strange creature that is hard for just anyone to make more than just basic use of. the dj market has always been oversaturated at the entry/local/internet level, especially with the rise of high speed internet. but think about the big djs...what made them so big? what separated them from the crowd? it is 99% of the time: great production work and clever marketing. i think the backlash against laptop djing is normal. anytime there is a revolutionary change that so many people are either A) not willing to accept or adapt to or B) not able/willing to learn, then people are quick to call it a monster and point out its supposed inferiority or lack of genuineness (is that even a word?). But the hard truth is: things evolve, especially with the high technology influence in electronic music. if you want to stay in the game as an artist, you dont have to nessicarily change or jump on the bandwagon, but you should at least embrace what is happening and learn to see the positive in it. Ableton is a new baby, and in 5 or 6 years it will evolve into something truely extraordinary. people will have developed incredible techniques that will push the boundaries of djing/production/live electronic music into something that will blur the lines between the 3 and create something we can only dream about wrapping our heads around.

Wonderful post. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Blake_Jarrell i think the backlash against laptop djing is normal. anytime there is a revolutionary change that so many people are either A) not willing to accept or adapt to or B) not able/willing to learn, then people are quick to call it a monster and point out its supposed inferiority or lack of genuineness (is that even a word?). But the hard truth is: things evolve, especially with the high technology influence in electronic music. if you want to stay in the game as an artist, you dont have to nessicarily change or jump on the bandwagon, but you should at least embrace what is happening and learn to see the positive in it.

I think on the flip side of that, alot of people are forgetting that all you need to have a good party is two turntables and a mixer. Im not disagreeing with anything youve said, but I think a balance needs to be found. Otherwise we'll end up in a situation where people cant play any music unless they have their laptop with them, which will be a very bad thing.

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Dave King - Tales Of The Future [Trance]
Dave King - Personal Classics
MIX ARCHIVE!!!

doesnt matter how much you want to spice up or contort djing...
it is still lame.

quote:

Originally posted by djdk I think on the flip side of that, alot of people are forgetting that all you need to have a good party is two turntables and a mixer. Im not disagreeing with anything youve said, but I think a balance needs to be found. Otherwise we'll end up in a situation where people cant play any music unless they have their laptop with them, which will be a very bad thing.

a bag of vinyl, a bag with a laptop in it

whats the difference?

i agree the balance does need to be found for now, but i think after so long it will shift completely to laptops or some other medium. maybe not any time soon, it may take 10-15 years, but its coming. vinyl is just too limiting and costly to the average person/dj that wants something more and is not a scratch master. when a new generation of djs comes along (ones that havent been exposed to the vinyl only days that we are all used to) i think most, if not all, will choose the less limiting choice and totally bypass vinyl all together. when something like that happens and demand goes down, the price will go up, and since vinyl is a petroleum product, it will most certainly become out of most people price range, bringing an almost certain death to the medium. i like vinyl too, i still like seeing a dj play vinyl here and there, but to be honest i dont think the average person on the dance floor really cares anymore. no one is really doing anything differently (save your james zabiela, scratch master, wiz kid types) with vinyl anymore than what can/is being done with cds computers and other performance medium...so why should they care? i think with laptops people are more excited again. i get asked almost everytime i play, "hey what is that that youre/hes doing?" "can you show me what you can do with that" "wait this song sounds different, what is he doing with it?" "wow im glad he cut out that 5 minute rediculous breakdown" etc etc

i understand the nostalgic/aesthetic value of vinyl, but to say it "sounds better" is just a matter of taste. i personally abhore the crackling of vinyl and its tendecy to skip, smudge, warp, and not stay in time. and their is certainly no worse sound than a worn out needle banging away worn out records on a huge sound system.

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