quote:

Originally posted by Dervish If the allied forces left Iraq right now the place would desend into a hole, FACT. Regardless of your thoughts on the war. This has to be one of the lowest quality threads of discussion (or lack of..) I've ever seen.

Its funny how everyone keeps mentioning this ... but what about the current situation? It seems like at this pace the situation in Iraq is gooing into a hole anyhow ... Its actually more likely that the violence will subside quicker if Americans withdrew. After Sunnies and Shiites fight out and find a way to settle their differences, which is in progress, things will be better. American military presence will only escalate the situation, either you choose to accept it or not. Iraqis have enough oil to solve their economic problems. Its in American hands to grant Iraq independence and self-determmination.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Who didn't? Let's not use a short memory as an excuse for an argument that everyone voted YES to shall we? It's just a little too convenient and insulting. It's easy to jump ship when things aren't going your way but the reality still is what it is and we have to make it work; there's no option.

I didn't believe it for a second, nor did the millions protesting worldwide, nor did the UN, and certainly influential people in our government didn't. It was based on a dossier by a University student who herself claimed that Iraq didn't have WMDs.

I trusted Bush as far as I could throw him, and as such, did not believe him when he told me that Iraq had WMDs.

If it hadn't been for Blair, Bush would've have gone in a darn sight sooner. But either way, they're int his quagmire, and it's going to be a few days before this one gets sorted.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r don't get caught up looking 180 at your own ass when there's still a problem in front of you either.

k.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

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Originally posted by Purple Its a war and Iraqies are desperate; they dont have any means to protect women and children who get caught up in cross fire.. Iraqies dont deliberately kill women and children; they dont raid houses and hunt them down and kill women and children.. watch some some vedios posted in this thread, they targget US troops and if someone gets caught up; he/she is simply at wrong place at wrong time. Maybe if US didnt invaded Iraq at first place; it woudnt have been a wrong place and wrong time itself. Who knows that Iraqies regret these deaths of innocent people caught up in all this as much as you/me or anyone else does.. but US media loves to highlight how an attack by Iraqi on US troops killed so many women and children today.. but they wont show how an attack by US troops on innocent Iraqies killed so many other innocent women and children today. .

I'm beginning to think your namesake is a reflection of that gash you must have sustained...

Do you really think that all Iraqis are united or something??
That Iraqis wouldn't kill Iraqis?
Hell, Saddam and his ilk were doing that uncontested and apparently the place was, "Under Control" before the States arrived (or that's the argument that we're supposed to believe from some here )

The propaganda that's being posted here (and it IS propaganda) is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing, sucking moral wind out of the Western sails.
War is never pretty and yes there's two side to a battle, however, that being said, the question still remains on why someone with the freedom and liberty to post such tripe would post against the side that gave them that freedom and liberty to start with?
You could decry, "Freedom of Speech" sure, I'd just call it cynical.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hell, Saddam and his ilk were doing that uncontested and apparently the place was, "Under Control" before the States arrived (or that's the argument that we're supposed to believe from some here )

No, that's what you should believe from Iraqis, the middle east, and those people who lived in Iraq prior to 2003. It was no pretty picture on the Human Rights front, but to a lesser degree, nor is the US.

That regime was crumbling from within. We should've just supported the public, and not gone in guns-blazing like we did. It was foolish. And it's ludicrous to suggest that nobody could have predicted it.

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Originally posted by DJ Mikey Mike Social outcasts are often of the opinion that they must have a drink before being able to loosen up with their inhibitions, thus being able to have a good time. There's a word that sums up this sort of behaviour, and that word is 'reject.'

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Originally posted by Magnetonium After Sunnies and Shiites fight out and find a way to settle their differences,

That's some pretty strong optimism there... I mean the fact of the matter is that the number of Iraqis killing Iraqis is what 50-100 times the number of western troops being killed.

You can't say that it would all just "balance out" if the western troops came out.

And all the current Iraq trainned security personal are from the baath party. The regions would split (and I think they are going to in a sence), then since the northern and southern regions (oil rich ones) largely non-baath areas.... I think problems would definatly occur.

What do the western troops (there on a UN mandate) provide? Neutral security services and aid. Not perfectly atall but still there. End could still be a hole but atleast it give the democracy a chance (note that isn't some fox news sound bite, since the current goverment WAS voted in).

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_ No, that's what you should believe from Iraqis, the middle east, and those people who lived in Iraq prior to 2003. It was no pretty picture on the Human Rights front, but to a lesser degree, nor is the US. That regime was crumbling from within. We should've just supported the public, and not gone in guns-blazing like we did. It was foolish. And it's ludicrous to suggest that nobody could have predicted it.

We'd like to think the regime was crumbling but that obviously wasn't the case since the U.N. had to create a no-fly zone around it just to keep the Kurds in the North AND Kuwait to the South safe.
Do we blame the US for THAT too?
Who was it that tried to waltz into Kuwait again?
Are we just forgetting all this happened or what?

And lets not even start in on the Food for Oil scandal between the U.N. and Iraq when they were supposed to have been under embargo...

So you suggest what? A coup?
Like the one that happened in Iran that went over SO well...


Yes, it is ludicrious to suggest that nobody could have predicted what was going to happen when Saddam was removed; pretty obvious really.
Somewhere in all of this, some people thought changing 30 years of despotism was going to happen overnight...
It's not just a government that had to change, there's a lifetime of fear, mistrust and hopelessness that has to be purged from the Iraqi psyche as well.
Only the Iraqi people can fix that and they've been given the chance to do it.

When I look at places like Dubai and the beautiful things that are going on over there, there's no reason with Iraqi's resources and the choice that they have been given, that Baghdad can't also flourish as well.
Maybe I'm sounding a little Utopian, but that's what I believe.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by erdega Hey maybe you can go to Iraq as contractor , I hear it's a job of a high turnover but at least money is good

i don't know, maybe i should.
do you advocate the killing of contractors too?
just American contractors?

I have talked to some iraqis and most of them say that there was no known difference between shia/sunni before USA/British invaded. When they did, they kicked out all the sunnis from jobs, opened the border with Iraq to bring more shias , most of the police and government is iranian or iranian sponsored and kurds were given land for free.This created clear divisions. That's when sunnis rebelled and struck back .

Last edited by erdega on Oct-17-2006 at 03:22

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Originally posted by Q5echo i don't know, maybe i should. do you advocate the killing of contractors too? just American contractors?

Money is good and it's a high turnover job position. I don't advocate killings but its fair game when supporting invasion and occupation on false premises

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Originally posted by erdega I have talked to some iraqis and most of them say that there was no known difference between shia/sunni before USA/British invaded. When they did, they kicked out all the sunnis from jobs, opened the border with Iraq to bring more shias , most of the police and government is iranian or iranian sponsored and kurds were given land for free.This created clear divisions. That's when sunnis rebelled and struck back .

So you're just going to ignore the questions regarding why you're circulating those video then aren't you?
Typical...

So everything was just peachy before the big "Americana-Nazi-invasion-of-2003" huh?

Dood, for someone who appears to be on the Iraqis peoples side, you're doing one hell of a lousy job convincing anyone else.
All we get is extremist propaganda and what? We're supposed to deduce....what?
That you enjoy watching Western soldiers die?
Is the 'underdog' standing up to 'Goliath' and because of a few snuff videos, they're 'winning'?
Am I supposed to feel sorry for the extremists?
Outraged?
What? What? What????

This isn't an Iraqi vs. American thing.
Terrorism is happening all over the world and just about all have common thread; a sick, extremist ideology that warps Islam.

When I start seeing stuff go down in MY backyard here in Canada, there is something really wrong in this world that transcends anti-Americanism.
Extremist Jihad does not care who the target is as long as they win.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by erdega I don't advocate killings but its fair game when supporting invasion and occupation on false premises

is English a second laguage (seriously, we get people from all over here) or do you not know what advocate means?

you never answered my question. just American contractors?

so you want to see all contractors killed, no matter nationality, if they refuse to leave Iraq?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Dood, for someone who appears to be on the Iraqis peoples side, you're doing one hell of a lousy job convincing anyone else.

i don't think he's on anyones side. he just doesn't like white people as a whole.

you're not getting context from this guy because he fears that he may be in over his head here intellectually. ergo the propaganda.