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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and yet, after all that exploration, it still comes down to faith. the untestable and unprovable gap. so after all the soul-searching (pun intended) youre still left with a bit of magic youre just supposed to accept. logically unacceptable as far as i am concerned. religions evolved as a form of social control.

Indeed, in the end it all comes down to faith. Interestingly enough, religion is not the only thing that comes down to faith. Ultimately there are things that are simply unknowable (such as what existed prior to plank time, what is dark matter or does it even exist, when does a fetus become conscious, etc). In such instances one must evaluate the available evidence, philosophical/theoretical positions, and draw their own conclusions. As far as I'm concerned what ever conclusions one makes is fine provided that they have solid reasons for those conclusions and those conclusions give them peace.

I will not argue with you re: social control. Most religions have been used as a form of social control, however, there is little evidence to suggest that they were formed for that purpose. I would argue that the social control element of the major religions says far more about the nature of man then the nature of god (accepting that god exists).

BTW, your continued use of the word magic shows that you either fail to understand both major religious families or you simply seek to insult those that don't share your beliefs. Both are clear signs of ignorance on your part.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Indeed, in the end it all comes down to faith. Interestingly enough, religion is not the only thing that comes down to faith. Ultimately there are things that are simply unknowable (such as what existed prior to plank time, what is dark matter or does it even exist, when does a fetus become conscious, etc). In such instances one must evaluate the available evidence, philosophical/theoretical positions, and draw their own conclusions. As far as I'm concerned what ever conclusions one makes is fine provided that they have solid reasons for those conclusions and those conclusions give them peace.

the difference being that things like dark matter might one day be examined to such an extent as to be proven. its merely a theory devised to explain our surroundings, and has a small amount of evidence to support it. no scientist is asking their students to accept a priori dark matter's existence.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would argue that the social control element of the major religions says far more about the nature of man then the nature of god (accepting that god exists).

agreed.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard BTW, your continued use of the word magic shows that you either fail to understand both major religious families or you simply seek to insult those that don't share your beliefs. Both are clear signs of ignorance on your part.

how so? what would you call parting the red sea, making the nile run with blood, turning water to wine, being a talking burning bush etc? if god isnt actually magical, how is he any different from the rest of us? in fact, id be more than disappointed if god wasnt a mage to be honest. but i guess thats my fantasy bias coming out of me. but seriously, i do equate god with "magic" (whatever that means).

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Originally posted by Allied Nations I think all is nonreligious people are sometimes a little jelaous of the faith and feeling the believers have. I wish I could think like them sometimes-

lol

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Religion has always been my favorite topic of debate, moral hazzard and pkcraistan made some really good points. Here is the way I see it and I know I'm going to be flamed because I'm catholic. Every religion had it's dark moments throughout history, especially the catholic and muslim religion. I believe there is a god and christ and moses were the true messiahs , btw , some parts of chirstianity believe that jesus christ was actually god himself. There have been too many things that have been recorded throughout history that science can't explain. I disagree with the big bang theory and man kind trying to explain everything through physics and other forms of science.

Christianity teaches us to respect and love each other and to accept death and even if we lose a loved one, we will see them again through god.Out of the 3 oldest religions, Christianity and Judaism are the only 2 religions that I admire . It's hard for me to take the Koran (muslim holy book) serious when in fact Mohammed (muslim messiah) carried a weapon and it says that there are a bunch of virgins waiting for you in the afterlife. to be blunt, if you can't accept that there is a being (force) that created all of us through his image than you can keep on believing the so called great scientists who believed that we evolved from monkeys.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would argue that the social control element of the major religions says far more about the nature of man then the nature of god

Well I would say you're right ... kinda. I would say that it's not so much the nature of man as it would be the nature of evolution. Living in groups afford certain obvious advantages as opposed to living the solitary life. But this requires some set guidelines such as avoiding conflicts with your rivals and collaborating with your friends—which, in turn, means keeping track of your fellow critters to know who is your enemy and who your ally. That, in turn, demands a lot of brain power. A few years back, it was shown that the size of a primate's brain, adjusted for the size of its body, is directly related to the size of group it lives in. (Subsequent work has shown that the same relationship holds true for other social mammals, such as wolves and their kin.)

Through conjecture we can infer that the benefits of group interaction were initially derived from familial bonding traits. Family members that look after one another would stand a better chance of surviving than solitary creatures. But family bonds can only expand to a limited group of people. A family would be less successful than a community through hard times. Thus one might say that community bonds would serve to benefit the existence of the community and the family much more. Humans, with the biggest brain/body ratio of all, tend to live in groups of about 150. Now I wonder if this group size was evolutionarily driven by religion as a means to bring people together in instances where family bonds do not hold sway. Or maybe it wasn't religion but it was the same mindset of group cohesion that made the concept of religion so ammenable/attractive. Just some random thoughts ...

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(accepting that god exists).

Doubtful

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Originally posted by occrider

With that kind of logic, you'd make a great candidate for the illuminati.

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Originally posted by Dj_Skez With that kind of logic, you'd make a great candidate for the illuminati.

Well a lot of it was derived from the works of Anthropologists such as Robin Dunbar and Stanley Ambrose. Ummm so would you care to elaborate? Please tell me you have more substance than a single sentence.

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Originally posted by occrider Well a lot of it was derived from the works of Anthropologists such as Robin Dunbar and Stanley Ambrose. Ummm so would you care to elaborate? Please tell me you have more substance than a single sentence.

I've read a lot of your posts (COR and Political Discussion), and I truly think that you're probably the most intelligent TA member. I was just goofing around. Since the Illuminati have been documented as having some of the most brilliant men in history as members, I just thought you'd make a good candidate, that's all. Btw, I'm assuming you're a college graduate, what are your fields of expertise.

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Originally posted by Dj_Skez I've read a lot of your posts (COR and Political Discussion), and I truly think that you're probably the most intelligent TA member. I was just goofing around. Since the Illuminati have been documented as having some of the most brilliant men in history as members, I just thought you'd make a good candidate, that's all. Btw, I'm assuming you're a college graduate, what are your fields of expertise.

Dammit stop confusing me . I view an illuminati accusation as an indication that I believe in fantastical conspiracy theories ... or that I'm a participant in one ... I guess we'll never know .

To answer your question my expertise is Risk Analysis.

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Originally posted by Dj_Skez and I truly think that you're probably the most intelligent TA member.

he's actually just an arseclown with lots of fancy words.

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j/k

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Originally posted by Azia for a source of comfort? I've always believed in reincarnation....then recently I wondered..."well do I 'believe' in it because it's comforting to know where I'll be going?" I'm starting to really believe that religion was simply made up to help comfort people. I know several people who all of a sudden "find their faith" when someone close to them passes. Wow, that's amazing. Sorry, but I think you suddenly "find" it because you don't know how else to cope.

So muslims are muslim because they can't cope? They have one of the most zealous faiths. sorry, but no.

If you get down to the philosophy of it, everyone has a religion. If you believe in something as a matter of faith, it's your religion, regardless of whether it is in the worship of a deity.