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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
That's because there's a library of knowledge and backround information they have to cover (atleast in the second one, that is, the one not by Russo) in order for the veiwer to be able to understand the arguments and context.


And in the information age this is not available online?

quote:

You could, but that kind of what you asked of me, except I would have to pretty much transcribe the entire thing. Or you could do both.


If it were establishing an argument I would be sure to be able to summarize and put forth the salient points that I'm making to support my argument. Since this particular argument is not my own, I don't feel like I should have that obligation. It's analagous to someone asking me to refute one particular statment that Bush made in the context of everything that he's said, and putting the research burden upon me. Well I wish I could just as easily find a link that could possibly refute or affirm everything the video said, however, I'm not going to find that. If I post a 10 hour video or a 100 page document and expect you to refute it in its entirety would I be justified in my expectations?

quote:

Mostly partisan politics and other inconsequential issues, at least the framework in which the discussion is confined.


What exactly are you looking for? Why don't you point out some discussions elsewhere that are to your liking and then explain how such discussions here are completely lacking in comparison? I'm guessing there is consistency to substantiate your determination.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Nov-14-2006 09:13  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
And in the information age this is not available online?


Apparently you can download (or purchase?) a transcript from Russo's website: http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

As for the other one, 'The Money Masters,' those guys have just done way too much research in a vast range of areas that I would be doing a great diservice to their work and the potential viewer by paraphrasing it in my own words, and would hardly substitute for it. There may be a transcript of it, haven't looked for it though. They do have a website if you prefer taking a look at that before (considering) to watch the movie: http://www.themoneymasters.com/

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
If it were establishing an argument I would be sure to be able to summarize and put forth the salient points that I'm making to support my argument. Since this particular argument is not my own, I don't feel like I should have that obligation. It's analagous to someone asking me to refute one particular statment that Bush made in the context of everything that he's said, and putting the research burden upon me. Well I wish I could just as easily find a link that could possibly refute or affirm everything the video said, however, I'm not going to find that. If I post a 10 hour video or a 100 page document and expect you to refute it in its entirety would I be justified in my expectations?


Well, apparently you misunderstood my intention of posting it in the first place. If I wanted to present an argument (of mine), I'd do so. After having watched this, I thought it was interesting, informative, and had an important enough message that it should be shared with others. That doesn't mean I wasn't interested in comments or critique But in order for anyone to do eigther in any meanigful way, they'd have to watch it in it's entirety. If you feel my posts or issues I bring up are generally nonsense, non-existant (issues), or don't justify much concern or attention, you can save yourself alot of time by simply ignoring them. If my intelligence and credibility is so low in your eyes, as demonstrated by this comment:

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Sorry if you're getting sick of this place. However, I wouldn't confuse people not giving a shit about the issues you raise with people not giving a "shit about any issue."


why waste your time on sap like me?

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
What exactly are you looking for? Why don't you point out some discussions elsewhere that are to your liking and then explain how such discussions here are completely lacking in comparison? I'm guessing there is consistency to substantiate your determination.


Are you serious or are you being facetious? Eigther way, I don't think there's much point in directly stating that. It's not likely to be well received and would be a fairly tangential side discussion involving an evaluation of our very thought process. I'll only end up wasting my time along with yours. But just as a hint, I think responsibility, elementary standards of morality, and critical thinking (including critical analysis of one's own world view, thought process, values, actions, and inactions) should be relevant.

(But if you want me to explain that in more detail, I'd preffer doing that over PM if you're interested)


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Nov-14-2006 11:58  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

Another interesting quote:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ."

- Sir Josiah Stamp, Director of the Bank of England (in the 1920s); reputed to be the 2nd wealthiest man in England at that time


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Nov-14-2006 12:01  United States
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Arbiter
Naked Power Organ



Registered: May 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
"They" haven't been able to present evidence to the contrary (i.e. "Show me the law!")


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...01----000-.html

Old Post Nov-14-2006 20:25 
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Apparently you can download (or purchase?) a transcript from Russo's website: http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

As for the other one, 'The Money Masters,' those guys have just done way too much research in a vast range of areas that I would be doing a great diservice to their work and the potential viewer by paraphrasing it in my own words, and would hardly substitute for it. There may be a transcript of it, haven't looked for it though. They do have a website if you prefer taking a look at that before (considering) to watch the movie: http://www.themoneymasters.com/


Thanks for the link

quote:

Well, apparently you misunderstood my intention of posting it in the first place. If I wanted to present an argument (of mine), I'd do so. After having watched this, I thought it was interesting, informative, and had an important enough message that it should be shared with others. That doesn't mean I wasn't interested in comments or critique But in order for anyone to do eigther in any meanigful way, they'd have to watch it in it's entirety. If you feel my posts or issues I bring up are generally nonsense, non-existant (issues), or don't justify much concern or attention, you can save yourself alot of time by simply ignoring them. If my intelligence and credibility is so low in your eyes, as demonstrated by this comment:



why waste your time on sap like me?


Woah no need to get so defensive. It's not like I haven't made plenty of postings whereby I've gotten meager responses if anything at all. However, like I said, I wouldn't confuse the lack of responses to those posts with a generalization that I can slap onto the forum as a whole and claim that people here don't care about anything substantive.

quote:

Are you serious or are you being facetious? Eigther way, I don't think there's much point in directly stating that. It's not likely to be well received and would be a fairly tangential side discussion involving an evaluation of our very thought process. I'll only end up wasting my time along with yours. But just as a hint, I think responsibility, elementary standards of morality, and critical thinking (including critical analysis of one's own world view, thought process, values, actions, and inactions) should be relevant.


And you cosinder these traits to be sub-par here? If so, compared to where else? I'm just curious to see what the benchmark is.


(But if you want me to explain that in more detail, I'd preffer doing that over PM if you're interested) [/QUOTE]


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Nov-15-2006 04:53  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

F_l_ow t_e _ _n_y.

quote:
The New York Times
March 9, 2007

The Man Who May Become the Richest Rothschild
By LANDON THOMAS Jr.

Happy or unhappy, each family generation often resembles another, and that is especially true when it comes to the Rothschilds.

More than 200 years after Mayer Amschel Rothschild founded the family dynasty that offered discreet counsel and investment wisdom to kings, queens, emperors and industrial titans, his 35-year-old direct descendant, Nathaniel, has emerged as a kingmaker in his own right and an investor who some say may become the richest Rothschild of them all.

In five short years, the man in line to be the fifth Baron Rothschild is close to becoming a billionaire through a web of private equity investments in Ukraine, Eastern Europe and most significant, his partnership stake in Atticus Capital, the fast-growing $14 billion hedge fund.

The ascent of Mr. Rothschild is a vivid illustration of how the still glittering, if somewhat faded, prestige and wealth of Europe’s most storied banking family has been reinvigorated from bold bets in this era’s new-money investment vehicles.

Like his forebears, he prefers that his influence remain unseen.

Mr. Rothschild is a principal adviser to Oleg Deripaska, one of the richest oligarchs in Russia and the owner of the aluminum giant Rusal, which recently merged with two other companies to create the world’s largest aluminum company. Mr. Rothschild received no public credit despite having played a crucial role in getting the deal done.

And like a true Rothschild he has a taste for the good life: as an avid skier, his principal residence is in Klosters, Switzerland, and he uses his Gulfstream jet to shuttle among his other homes in Paris, Moscow, London, New York and Greece.

But he is also a man of contradictions: he dates supermodels and actresses, sits on an advisory board of the Brookings Institution, a research organization in Washington, and serves his guests the best wines from the Rothschild vineyards, which he himself will not drink.

He professes to have a penchant for privacy and would not be interviewed for this article, yet he allowed his lushly renovated town house in Greenwich Village to be featured in Men’s Vogue magazine. Despite his reputation as the most gregarious of men and the increasingly public nature of his life and career, he comes across as a pinched, reticent man in the few public photographs of him — as if he was shying away from his renown.

The burden of being a Rothschild can be a heavy one. In 1996, one of Mr. Rothschild’s cousins, Amschel, having been asked to fill a leadership position in the family bank in London, hanged himself in a hotel bathroom at the age of 41.

Four years later Raphael de Rothschild, also a cousin, died on a sidewalk in Manhattan at the age of 23 from a heroin overdose.

In the early 1990s, some thought that Mr. Rothschild might also buckle under the weight of the family name. He appeared to be an aimless society playboy with a taste for the slack, unchallenged lifestyle so often embraced by the sons and daughters of Europe’s rich families.

“This is the story of Prince Hal turning into Henry IV,” said Charles G. Phillips, who supervised Mr. Rothschild during his time at the investment firm Gleacher & Company. “He is one of the few sons of great men who has enhanced the family stature and created his own wealth.”

The family legacy was daunting at first for Mr. Rothschild, whose ancestor Nathan Mayer Rothschild helped finance Britain’s victory at Waterloo and whose father, Jacob, split from the family bank in 1980 to begin his own successful career as an investor.

So much so that until he started work as a 25-year-old investment analyst at Gleacher in 1995, Mr. Rothschild avoided it altogether.

He was the life of parties in New York, Paris and London, and in 1995 he eloped to the Dominican Republic with Annabelle Neilson, a free-spirited London socialite with a reputation for dancing on dinner tables in her high heels.

In 1995, when Mr. Rothschild showed up for work at Gleacher, he was still trying to find his way. He was a recent graduate of Oxford, where he had been a member of the exclusive Bullingdon Club, a notorious drinking society known for its rite of wrecking the restaurant furnishings after raucous dinner parties.

With his shabby dress, limited financial experience and energetic social life, he did not make much of a first impression, according to Eric Gleacher, chairman and founder of the bank who is a close friend of Jacob Rothschild, known as Lord Rothschild.

“He was kind of floundering,” Mr. Gleacher said. “I figured he had some big boots to fill.”

While he undertook the drudgery of trainee investment banking work, Mr. Rothschild kept his eyes open for an opportunity more in tune with his growing ambition. In the spring of 1995 he found just that when he left the Gleacher offices in Midtown Manhattan to smoke a quick cigarette a few floors above.

Puffing away in an anteroom, he ran into Timothy R. Barakett, then a 29-year-old investor who was doing the rounds trying to raise funds for Atticus, his new hedge fund. Learning that Mr. Barakett was starting up a fund, he asked for a job. Mr. Barakett turned him down.

But the two men stayed in touch, and in the fall of 1996, Mr. Barakett took Mr. Rothschild on as a minority partner in the nascent fund, then $90 million in assets, and gave him the title of director of business development with a mandate to tap his considerable connections and family connections for new capital.

Mr. Rothschild took to the new opportunity with renewed vigor. He stopped drinking, reached a divorce agreement and devoted his energies to promoting the investment talents of Mr. Barakett.

The fund’s extraordinary performance — since inception it is has grown on average 30 percent a year — made Mr. Rothschild’s job an easy one. Still, some early investors like Peter Munk, the founder and chairman of Barrick Gold, were skeptical at first.

In 2001, he agreed to meet with Mr. Rothschild at the request of Mr. Rothschild’s father, a longtime friend.

“He did not carry the halo of being the future of the family,” Mr. Munk recalled of their brief meeting in the lobby of Claridge’s, the hotel in London. “I wanted to get rid of the boy.”

When Mr. Rothschild said he was a partner in a hedge fund, Mr. Munk had his doubts, assuming that the fund was just a family hedge fund.

“He was indignant,” Mr. Munk recalled. “ ‘My family did not put in one cent,’ he said.”

Mr. Munk would become an investor and a happy one at that. Now, Mr. Rothschild sits on Barrick’s advisory board and is an investor along with Mr. Munk in the TriGranit Development Corporation, a real estate company that invests in Hungary and Eastern Europe and which may go public this year, representing another big payoff.

“This kid is special,” he said. “It’s back to when they were ruling the world.”

With his mix of Old World politesse, a racy appreciation for fast times and the brute force of his accumulating wealth, Mr. Rothschild has become friend and adviser to many — including Russian billionaires, Indian steel magnates and a long list of people who have helped him out during his ascent.

“I will literally get a BlackBerry from him in Siberia asking me how I am doing,” said Glenn Dubin of Highbridge Capital, who was an early investor in Atticus.

To a large extent, the source of Mr. Rothschild’s renewed wealth and influence is tied to the explosive growth of Atticus, where over the last three years assets have surged to $14 billion from $2 billion. (Last year, the fund was up 50 percent before fees, an astonishing return given its considerable size.) In 2005, Mr. Rothschild was paid $80 million in compensation and made more than that last year, according to people with knowledge of his pay arrangement at Atticus.

Now co-chairman, he spends less time raising money for the fund, which is for the most part closed to new investors. But his influence in opening doors for Mr. Barakett, especially in Europe, has been considerable. His Oxford connections came in handy when he pried David Slager, also an Oxford alumnus, away from Goldman Sachs’s risk arbitrage desk in London. Mr. Slager is now Mr. Barakett’s top investing deputy and a vice chairman at the fund.

Mr. Barakett and Mr. Rothschild remain close and speak every day.

“He has had an incredible evolution, and he has done it on his own,” Mr. Barakett said. “It’s not about family connections. He has a knack for identifying talented people and interesting investments.”

By all accounts his relationship with his father is a complicated one. He sits on the board of RIT Capital Partners, Lord Rothschild’s investment trust, and he has never been shy about using the family name to open doors. Still, people who know him say that he is consumed by a furious ambition to live up to, if not surpass, the reputation and doings of his father.

“Being Jacob’s son was difficult for him,” Mr. Dubin said. “But he has matured and is comfortable with himself.”

But, while his rapidly won riches may give him pleasure, it will take more than a billion dollars to live up to the wider social and charitable responsibilities that fall upon a Rothschild baron.

“The family is accomplished in so many different ways,” said Jeffrey T. Leeds, a private equity investor who knows the Rothschilds well. “Nat knows that he would not be fulfilling his responsibilities if he were simply someone who amassed great wealth.”

Now his investments are done through his personal merchant bank called JNR, an entity that is controlled solely by him, in spite of the initials, which stand for Jacob and Nathaniel Rothschild.

It is through JNR, based in London and run by a small crew of investment bankers, that Mr. Rothschild has made his latest investments, prospecting for oil in Ukraine and buying a stake in Diligence, a corporate intelligence firm.


“There is a lot of power behind him, and like all the Rothschilds they use their power with discretion,” said Guy Wyser-Pratte, who has invested with Mr. Rothschild. “I expect him to uphold the family tradition.”

Source: NYTimes


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Mar-12-2007 05:13  United States
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

Z, I don't like this documentary. And I will tell you why. I tried watching it but it didn't fully dl so I just rented the film and watched it. It occured to me that this was nothing more than propaganda. Aaron Russo is a jew and the guy he interviewed was a jew. The film was nothing more than an "elitist" poking fun at you. At the end of the fucking film he was "now that you know the truth it is time for you to go and wake up the rest of the people and show them the truth". Like wtf? If he had this all on film wouldn't he had a very good chance of winning a court case against the federal government? Why can't he do the shit? Oh, i forgot he is a millionaire/jew/elitist that would loose a lot if he did try to do something. The man he interviewed threatened him. He could bring up a lawsuit for being threatened.

Sorry Z,
0/10

Old Post Mar-12-2007 19:39 
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star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL

Awesome flag dude. Too pity you don't have anything common with it.

Old Post Mar-12-2007 20:03  Europe
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

What you mean by that?

Old Post Mar-12-2007 20:11 
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star-traveller
Kill All Humans



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Amsterdam, NL

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
What you mean by that?


I'm glad that you are not from the USSR and don't have any idea what is it.

Old Post Mar-12-2007 21:26  Europe
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Z, I don't like this documentary. And I will tell you why. I tried watching it but it didn't fully dl so I just rented the film and watched it. It occured to me that this was nothing more than propaganda. Aaron Russo is a jew and the guy he interviewed was a jew. The film was nothing more than an "elitist" poking fun at you. At the end of the fucking film he was "now that you know the truth it is time for you to go and wake up the rest of the people and show them the truth". Like wtf? If he had this all on film wouldn't he had a very good chance of winning a court case against the federal government? Why can't he do the shit? Oh, i forgot he is a millionaire/jew/elitist that would loose a lot if he did try to do something. The man he interviewed threatened him. He could bring up a lawsuit for being threatened.

Sorry Z,
0/10


There's better material going over many of the same topics yes, but this one isn't bad at all. So what if Russo's Jewish? C'mon now .


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post Mar-12-2007 22:24  United States
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metalgearsolid
I am a sexist



Registered: Apr 2005
Location: For you neo/

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
There's better material going over many of the same topics yes, but this one isn't bad at all. So what if Russo's Jewish? C'mon now .

I don't care if hes a jew. But you know...the elitist are normally all jews?

And yes it is bad. did you not see past what he was trying to do?

Old Post Mar-12-2007 22:25 
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > America: From Freedom to Fascism (MUST SEE)
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