quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium . Does it mean that then it justified the Jewish occupation and forced migration of many Palestinians?

yes.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium People of Palestinian lands enjoyed occassional instances of independence throughout the centuries after the Exodus of Jews from Juadea, which they lost again at the onslaught of the 1948 war.

Actually the People of Palestinian lands never enjoyed any instance of national independence throughout the centuries since before the biblical Jews conquered their (Cnanites) areas, near 3500 years ago.

You can see this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
The table of contents list all the rulers and the time periods of the area. There is not one gap in this history where an independent state (that was not Jewish) existed on these lands.


Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Actually the People of Palestinian lands never enjoyed any instance of national independence throughout the centuries since before the biblical Jews conquered their (Cnanites) areas, near 3500 years ago. You can see this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine The table of contents list all the rulers and the time periods of the area. There is not one gap in this history where an independent state (that was not Jewish) existed on these lands. Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

According to you then, and ethnic groups fighting for independence have no rights because they never existed as such independent entities before, for example even such breakaway republics like Kosovo. In your view, the local people of such lands have no right to have an independent nation just because they were denied their freedom throughout history. What about other nations, like Belarus, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan - all of which never existed independently as such entities before? Why do you think some people who first of all, mostly are not from their area (Jews) in where currently is Israel, they come in on foreign land and declare it to be theirs, denying the local groups who lived there for thousands of years the right to self-determmination? Are you OK then with the oppression and destruction of native peoples around the world who for most part didnt have the concept of a powerful country but lived freely for many years before their lands were seized?

Your concept is that of I come, I take the land and its mine.

I disagree.

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Jan-22-2007 at 13:22

And, according to your principle, looking back at the history of Palestine, if some other country were to take over Israel this century, be it Egypt or Syria or whatever, it will be justified because it has happened many times in history.

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How is this for a simplified explanation of this whole thing?


1947: UN creates a map, offering the Palestines/Arabs a very large chunk of land. Israel agrees to the map:

Here is a picture:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap...t_partition.jpg

1948: Arabs REJECT that map, and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, among others, join forces, attempt to DESTROY Israel and push all of the jews into the sea.

Later in 1948:

Muslims lose the war. Israel faces down all of these armies in battle and kick their asses. So basically they say "FUCK YOU GUYS...We tried.", and take the disputed area for themselves. So in the end, the current borders of Israel today were formed the SAME WAY every other nation on the planet formed their borders...by winning a WAR over those borders. They paid the price in blood for their land.
They defeated their enemies in battle then declared their independence in that territory.

Later during the '6 day war', some of these same groups and countries again tried to destroy Israel. Once again, Israel kicks their ass. They defeated the aggressors in a war, and took another piece of their land as a penance.

Does that sum things up?

After what the Israeli people have been through in defense of that land, I fail to see how anyone can dispute their claim to it.

Last edited by Capitalizt on Jan-22-2007 at 16:15

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium According to you then, and ethnic groups fighting for independence have no rights because they never existed as such independent entities before, for example even such breakaway republics like Kosovo. In your view, the local people of such lands have no right to have an independent nation just because they were denied their freedom throughout history. What about other nations, like Belarus, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan - all of which never existed independently as such entities before? Why do you think some people who first of all, mostly are not from their area (Jews) in where currently is Israel, they come in on foreign land and declare it to be theirs, denying the local groups who lived there for thousands of years the right to self-determmination? Are you OK then with the oppression and destruction of native peoples around the world who for most part didnt have the concept of a powerful country but lived freely for many years before their lands were seized? Your concept is that of I come, I take the land and its mine. I disagree.

Look, I would have enjoyed debating with you but you have simple reading comprehension problems which would make such a debate either pointless or tedious.

This is what I wrote above:

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

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quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt How is this for a simplified explanation of this whole thing? 1947: UN creates a map, offering the Palestines/Arabs a very large chunk of land. Israel agrees to the map: Here is a picture: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap...t_partition.jpg 1948: Arabs REJECT that map, and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, among others, join forces, attempt to DESTROY Israel and push all of the jews into the sea. Later in 1948: Muslims lose the war. Israel faces down all of these armies in battle and kick their asses. So basically they say "FUCK YOU GUYS...We tried.", and take the disputed area for themselves. So in the end, the current borders of Israel today were formed the SAME WAY every other nation on the planet formed their borders...by winning a WAR over those borders. They paid the price in blood for their land. They defeated their enemies in battle then declared their independence in that territory. Later during the '6 day war', some of these same groups and countries again tried to destroy Israel. Once again, Israel kicks their ass. They defeated the aggressors in a war, and took another piece of their land as a penance. Does that sum things up? After what the Israeli people have been through in defense of that land, I fail to see how anyone can dispute their claim to it.

Has it ever occured to you that PALESTINE was WIPED OFF THE MAP???

and guess who did it!!!!!

There was a grwoing refugee problem in other arab nations becuase of the ethnic cleansing that was occuring..

The israeli people are defending land they stole!!..

take your head out of your ass.. youre spewing shit out of your mouth

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Has it ever occured to you that PALESTINE was WIPED OFF THE MAP??? and guess who did it!!!!! There was a grwoing refugee problem in other arab nations becuase of the ethnic cleansing that was occuring.. The israeli people are defending land they stole!!.. take your head out of your ass.. youre spewing shit out of your mouth

Wow! Great rebuttal Cyrus!

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Cyrus, when will you admit this is NOT really about any particular piece of land, but about fanatical muslims attempting to MURDER every Jew on the planet, in accordance with their twisted views of Islam? Israel could fall back into something the size of a cardboard box, and it still would not please the "Palestinians". They would insist on seeing that box burned to ashes, because it had non believers inside it.

Bottom line is, Arabs shouldn't have attacked Israel in 1948. They did, they lost, now they cry and cry and cry again.

If they wanted that land, they should have won the war. To the winner go the spoils. Ask some Native Americans. The best they can hope for now is a little slice of land. I'm not saying it is fair, but it is reality. Unless you drop a nuke on Tel-Aviv, the Jews aren't going anywhere, but I think everyone knows the consequences of that.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King i listen to trance becuase it is beautifully composed like a classical piece of music.... but with beats in it...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I hardly if ever acknowledge sarcasm from a person I dont know because I ran into serious problems on an undisclosed buying website before.

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Originally posted by Dopey Bottom line is, Arabs shouldn't have attacked Israel in 1948. They did, they lost, now they cry and cry and cry again. If they wanted that land, they should have won the war. To the winner go the spoils. Ask some Native Americans. The best they can hope for now is a little slice of land. I'm not saying it is fair, but it is reality. Unless you drop a nuke on Tel-Aviv, the Jews aren't going anywhere, but I think everyone knows the consequences of that.

I disagree on the Native Americans behalf. It was the Americans who pushed them out using far superior weapons and technology, and genocidal methods like smallpox towels and other forms of disease (its funny how these are not considered as genocide of the native peoples). Natives werent a one powerful country fighting against United States. They were scarsely populated groups all over Americas that just wanted to live on their lands, in peace. And American government eventually pushed them out onto small native reserves where some of the rituals are STILL prohibited, and medicines (including halucinogenic herbs) that Natives used for many thousands of years before the Europeans even formed first empires on the European continent.

As I said before, its more appropriately to call all these policies expansionist in nature - even though you might have lived on your land along with predecessors for eons, I came to your land, defeated you and its mine now. And you have to follow my laws, speak my language, and forget your culture.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture