quote:

Originally posted by Derivative Please don't tell me thats the only dimension you think of in terms of sound design...because if it is, its no wonder you are having problems...

+1

Good mixing is three dimensional. The dimensions are: panning, frequency and loudness.

First of all, the kick sounds in your face because it's the loudest element in the track. Compression can actually reduce this effect by making all of the sounds equally loud.

Second of all that "3d" effect is caused by using panning. Percussion never pans center, unless it's a kick. Effects also should have some stereo imaging thrown in.

Thirdly:

quote:

Its something else other than just eq and clean mixing. All my mixes are so clean.. WAY too clean.. it sounds way to digital and cold. You hear those pro songs, all the tracks are like glued together its hard to explain.

This is your answer. The idea of all of this is not to sound "clean" or cold, but to ensure that all elements are audible, and that they don't produce unwanted peaks.

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First, thx for all the replies and tips. I appreciate you guys are trying to help.

I guess here is my best example. The pro sound vs amatuer sound :

Pro sound : just the bass kick and snare alone (2 tracks) is thicker, wider, fuller, more umph... then my whole song put together.. The pro sound can rock a club just with a bass kick and snare. Its not only thumping to the ears but also feels good listening to it to.

Now how is this possible?

here are some things I know is NOT the secret to achieve this sound.

1) Layering. I layer the shit out of my stuff... yes it feels thicker, yes it makes it sound better. but it still doesnt sound the same.

2) EQ. Ok I will boost the low freq maybe 90 hz or something to give it some ass. Hell maybe boost 3-5K to give it more prescence. Ah shit this still doesnt do it.

3) Take the bottom of one kick , and take the top of another kick, compress them together, run them through distortion. This sounds cool... But fuck the pro sound is still kicking my ass.

4) Even if i make the kick sound decent it still doesnt feel good to listen to like the pro tracks. Listen to your favorite songs... they not only sound good but feel good when you listen to it. I think analog is the key here..

You see.. it is not that I dont try, I try many ways and still am missing that juice and magic. The pro sound have something that some of us dont have. I think I have some ideas on what may help. Im gonna try everyway possible because I am losing sleep over this. I will report back to you guys if i find out the key.

It all starts with the sounds you use
If the sounds you use dont sound crystal-fucking-clear-likeyouwantthemtobe, you wont have pro sound
Second, you have to put the right sounds together!
Thirdly, you song must have character, style, creativity

the reason a kick/bass snare on their own work in a pro track is due to getting the three working together. the kick and bass are fucking the headroom for all they can get. the snare is at that particular perfect volume ratio to the bass and kick, good mixing and careful use of compression/sidechaining and eq will get even mediocre samples kicking. source some banging kick samples from one of the numerous sample sites. a good kick is more important than anything else imo.

then layer a warm bassline under it and keep tweeking those till you get your kick, snare and bass all working together.

to compress a kick you should use an attack of:-

*50-55ms for a slow warm kick
*45ms for an average trance kick
*20-40ms for an electro kick

release should be around the 20ms mark for all of them if i remember right.

threshold depends on the level of the kick sample you are using.

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the majority of times i dont compress my kicks as it sometimes loses the clarity of them. i only compress them if its really necessary.

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quote:

Originally posted by richg101 the reason a kick/bass snare on their own work in a pro track is due to getting the three working together. the kick and bass are fucking the headroom for all they can get. the snare is at that particular perfect volume ratio to the bass and kick, good mixing and careful use of compression/sidechaining and eq will get even mediocre samples kicking. source some banging kick samples from one of the numerous sample sites. a good kick is more important than anything else imo. then layer a warm bassline under it and keep tweeking those till you get your kick, snare and bass all working together. to compress a kick you should use an attack of:- *50-55ms for a slow warm kick *45ms for an average trance kick *20-40ms for an electro kick release should be around the 20ms mark for all of them if i remember right. threshold depends on the level of the kick sample you are using.

awesome stuff man, i will try this out thanks !

A sample?

quote:

Originally posted by Krispy Kreme whats the secret?

Hold on...I just checked your studio, you have the most fucking awesome studio judging by the pics!
Perhaps shit loads of gear isn't the answer?

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More gear is always the answer!

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM Hold on...I just checked your studio, you have the most fucking awesome studio judging by the pics! Perhaps shit loads of gear isn't the answer?

bah, I actually dont have that much gear to be honest. I just have it set up nicely

Heres my stuff:

virus ti
jp 8080
midi keyboard
moniters


To be honest I dont even use the virus ti. The presets sound like ass and its hard as hell to make good sounds. Just to make a good sound you have to go through all that routing and crap . The waveforms sound so raw that doesnt help at all either, hence why I dont use it and have sold it. I will replace this with the lovely nord lead 2. The sounds from that thing are so round/bright/warm and easy to use.

So pretty much the only piece of hardware I have is the jp8080.
I know it is something more to it though. For example I use rb2k1 soundbank on the jp8080... it sounds great. I will add other fx to it, thicken it up even more, however the sound still cant compare to pro tracks.

Like i said before, half of it is the original sound, and i believe that the rest of it is how you get the most out of that sound. If anyone can get a pad to sound and feel as huge as Armin's pad (I will post an example) from just eq and plugins or whatever, I will bow down and call you god. It is literally impossible. How can you get that sound from all 1's and 0's. There is more to it.

Last edited by Krispy Kreme on Dec-05-2006 at 06:57

Check out arming van buuren - Sail.

At about 2 min 45 sec into the song (on the A State Of Trance cd 2,song 16) , there is the pad.

This is an example of the pro sound. There is that EXTRA something.

Im on my journey to find out the secrets

Have you ever sent your stuff to a mastering engineer? I'm not talking someone who says they do mastering, I mean someone who has be doing it for 20 years (eg). i know that definately makes a difference to the final product. Hilltop Hoods (ozzie hip hop group) stuff sounded 'home made' till the mastering guys put their touch on it, went platinum with loads of airplay and awards in this country. Different genre I know, but you could say they are pro sound now.