quote:

Originally posted by LazFX seriously, though; its been a good run for the human race, its just our turn to go bye bye. and thats the only conclusion to this...

Politicians and big business is not going to bulge, I agree. They will live to the last possible moment in luxury ignoring the problems, and at the last possible moment, when its too late, will try to act. Human race is doomed. We have massive brains capable of so many wonderful things, yet mostly we have caused so much damage to other people, environment, and we are so primitive. For example, the people who developed nuclear weapons - what were they thinking when they were designing it??? Didnt they stop at one moment and say - WAIT, THESE THINGS WILL KILL MANY PEOPLE AND COULD KILL US AL ONE DAY.

Meh, I dont have any pity for our organized civilization. I am embarrassed to be part of a civilization that has done so much damage. All for what - better lifestyle that most of other people, who live in miserable conditions and poverty? Pffft. Some advanced beings looking out from space are looking at us right now as inferior, primitive, dumb civilization. We are setting a really bad legacy for other generations to come. Sadly, at the current rate of destruction of rainforests, for example, one day we will only see them in musems with awe that once these things existed.

I admire the societies of "very primitive" Indians, because they have lived for tens of thousands of years with harmony with environment, and have been so good they hardly left any trace of their existence. And I am not talking about Mayas or Incas here ;-) These true natives, who have been mostly wiped out from face of the Earth, were the ones who really appreciated the environment, had much more luxury time and family time, lived relatively stress-free lives, and in cases of most of these societies like Shoeshone's, and/or Bushmen (sorry if I got the name wrong) they didnt even have the word war in their dictionary!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I admire the societies of "very primitive" Indians, because they have lived for tens of thousands of years with harmony with environment, and have been so good they hardly left any trace of their existence. And I am not talking about Mayas or Incas here ;-)

"tens of thousands"? Who are you talking about? Moses?

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These true natives, who have been mostly wiped out from face of the Earth, were the ones who really appreciated the environment, had much more luxury time and family time, lived relatively stress-free lives, and in cases of most of these societies like Shoeshone's, and/or Bushmen (sorry if I got the name wrong) they didnt even have the word war in their dictionary!

They also lived far shorter lives, spent their time walking from place to place, didn't enjoy the luxuries of air-conditioning, central heating, umbrellas or a nice BMW 5-speed. Sure, they may have been good at self-sustainence, but then again they aren't lining up at my door right now to prove me wrong!

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Originally posted by Shakka "tens of thousands"? Who are you talking about? Moses? They also lived far shorter lives, spent their time walking from place to place, didn't enjoy the luxuries of air-conditioning, central heating, umbrellas or a nice BMW 5-speed. Sure, they may have been good at self-sustainence, but then again they aren't lining up at my door right now to prove me wrong!

Tens of thousands as in I dont know exact years. And no, I am not Moses ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples

Shorter lives, yes. Spent more time walking - excellent exercise! Luxury of air-conditioning, BMW's, sofas and shit - thats the things that are depleting and destroying natural resources ;-) They're part of the destruction of the environment. you drive your car, its breaks down 10-20-30 years later and you have to buy another one, while the old one is mostly thrown into a huge dump. Most of things around you are going to be in landfills sooner or later. Earth is becoming gradually a toilet bucket of our processes. Indigenous people used nature-friendly growing methods, not the slash & burn agriculture that humans were known for. And they are not lining up at your door because most of them are dead, resettled, dont know their language/history/roots. The true natives I am talking about are the ones who are still untouched by civilization far and deep in rainforests, south africa's semi-bush deserts, mountains, etc. The rest have been killed, assimilated and converted to our lifestyle ;-)

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

OK Magnetonium, you had me do some research. Now here is what scholarly reviewed papers say that your 'wikipedia' neglects. All those 'warming' periods where preceded by large amounts of CO2 release into the atmosphere. Then it was due to natural phenomena, now it is due to humans.

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Section: SPECTRUM Global warming 55 million years ago suggests that the Earth's climate is highly sensitive to carbon dioxide, according to research led by Mark Pagani, associate professor of geology and geophysics at Yale University. Scientists have known for years that a massive release of carbon into the atmosphere caused the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) global warming event 55 million years ago. The questions of how much carbon affected temperature and where that carbon came from have remained unanswered. The geologic record shows that the greenhouse effect resulting from atmospheric carbon heated the planet as a whole by about 9°F in less than 10,000 years, at a time when average global temperatures were 9°F warmer than those of today. That temperature increase lasted about 170,000 years, altering the world's rainfall patterns, acidifying the oceans, affecting plant and animal life in the seas and on land, and creating the conditions for the dawn of our primate ancestors. According to the new study, if burning plant material caused the PETM global warming event, then the Earth's sensitivity to carbon dioxide is more than 4.5°F per carbon dioxide doubling (when atmospheric carbon dioxide doubles, the average temperature increases by 4.5°F). If methane caused the warming, then Earth's climate must be extremely sensitive to carbon dioxide--increasing average temperatures by more than 10°F per carbon dioxide doubling. According to Pagani, PETM is an example of "carbon-dioxide induced global warming and stands in contrast to critics who argue that the Earth's temperature is insensitive to increases in carbon dioxide." These findings suggest that Earth's temperature will rise substantially in the middle of this century, when atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations are expected to double. --Yale University press release, 7 December. (M.H.P.)

Source: Environment; Jan/Feb2007, Vol. 49 Issue 1, p7-7, 1/3p

Now there's some more papers that show the same thing and more detail. If you want them ill download the pdf's and send them your way. Now would you please stop using wikipedia, there is a reason it is not accepted anywhere as a reliable source. I also found funny that reply you made where you bolded a quote with 'citation needed' at the end, i mean doesn't that just hint that that claim is a bit dodgy and your highlighting it yourself?

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I admire the societies of "very primitive" Indians, because they have lived for tens of thousands of years with harmony with environment, and have been so good they hardly left any trace of their existence. And I am not talking about Mayas or Incas here ;-) These true natives, who have been mostly wiped out from face of the Earth, were the ones who really appreciated the environment, had much more luxury time and family time, lived relatively stress-free lives, and in cases of most of these societies like Shoeshone's, and/or Bushmen (sorry if I got the name wrong) they didnt even have the word war in their dictionary!

Bullcrap, show me a reliable source showing that this happened. Most native tribes died out due to mismanagement of their environment, none of them were 'sensitive' or 'in touch' with their environment. Stop perpetuating stereotypes. Regarding war, peaceful tribes only existed when they didnt have any other tribes around, eliminating the need to fight over resources and hence eliminating wars. They WERE NOT inherently peaceful.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX OK Magnetonium, you had me do some research. Now here is what scholarly reviewed papers say that your 'wikipedia' neglects. All those 'warming' periods where preceded by large amounts of CO2 release into the atmosphere. Then it was due to natural phenomena, now it is due to humans. Source: Environment; Jan/Feb2007, Vol. 49 Issue 1, p7-7, 1/3p Now there's some more papers that show the same thing and more detail. If you want them ill download the pdf's and send them your way. Now would you please stop using wikipedia, there is a reason it is not accepted anywhere as a reliable source. I also found funny that reply you made where you bolded a quote with 'citation needed' at the end, i mean doesn't that just hint that that claim is a bit dodgy and your highlighting it yourself?

As for the citation needed quote, who knows. But its true for the rest of the paragraph ;-)

I didnt say carbon dioxide has no effect on the temperature changes and climate change that is. Back then large amount of carbon dioxide were released into atmosphere by natural processes, thats right, but today its a very small amount even though humans are releases a lot of CO2 into atmosphere, it disappears like a fart in the wind. The air composition is still mostly the same, hovering at below the 0.5% mark of the total atmospheric volume.

"Earth's atmosphere is a layer of gases surrounding the planet Earth and retained by the Earth's gravity. It contains roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.04% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases, in addition to water vapor."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere

"About 4.4 billion years ago, the surface had cooled enough to form a crust, still heavily populated with volcanoes which released steam, carbon dioxide, and ammonia. This led to the early "second atmosphere", which was primarily carbon dioxide and water vapor, with some nitrogen but virtually no oxygen. This second atmosphere had approximately 100 times as much gas as the current atmosphere, but as it cooled much of the carbon dioxide was dissolved in the seas and precipitated out as carbonates. The later "second atmosphere" contained nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and very recent simulations run at the University of Waterloo and University of Colorado in 2005 suggest that it may have had up to 40% hydrogen[5]. It is generally believed that the greenhouse effect, caused by high levels of carbon dioxide and methane, kept the Earth from freezing. In fact temperatures were probably very high, over 70 degrees C (158 degrees F), until some 2.7 billion years ago.

One of the earliest types of bacteria were the cyanobacteria. Fossil evidence indicates that bacteria shaped like these existed approximately 3.3 billion years ago and were the first oxygen-producing evolving phototropic organisms. They were responsible for the initial conversion of the earth's atmosphere from an anoxic state to an oxic state (that is, from a state without oxygen to a state with oxygen) during the period 2.7 to 2.2 billion years ago. Being the first to carry out oxygenic photosynthesis, they were able to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen, playing a major role in oxygenating the atmosphere.

Photosynthesising plants would later evolve and convert more carbon dioxide into oxygen. Over time, excess carbon became locked in fossil fuels, sedimentary rocks (notably limestone), and animal shells. As oxygen was released, it reacted with ammonia to release nitrogen; in addition, bacteria would also convert ammonia into nitrogen. But most of the modern day level of nitrogen are due mostly to sunlight-powered photolysis of ammonia released steadily over the aeons from volcanoes.

As more plants appeared, the levels of oxygen increased significantly, while carbon dioxide levels dropped. At first the oxygen combined with various elements (such as iron), but eventually oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, resulting in mass extinctions and further evolution. With the appearance of an ozone layer (ozone is an allotrope of oxygen) lifeforms were better protected from ultraviolet radiation. This oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere is the "third atmosphere". 200 - 250 million years ago, up to 35 percent of the atmosphere was oxygen (bubbles of ancient atmosphere were found in an amber).

This modern atmosphere has a composition which is enforced by oceanic blue-green algae as well as geological processes. O2 does not remain naturally free in an atmosphere, but tends to be consumed (by inorganic chemical reactions, as well as by animals, bacteria, and even land plants at night), while CO2 tends to be produced by respiration and decomposition and oxidation of organic matter. Oxygen would vanish within a few million years due to chemical reactions and CO2 dissolves easily in water and would be gone in millennia if not replaced. Both are maintained by biological productivity and geological forces seemingly working hand-in-hand to maintain reasonably steady levels over millions of years."


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Actually, today's carbon dioxide levels are very low compared to other eras of Earth's history. Oxygen levels are smaller now for crying out loud than millions of years ago (read above). Its the nitrogen you should be worried about, its composition of the atmosphere has been increasing steadily - because most of carbon dioxide is trapped in soil, water, plants. If there would be no CO2 in atmosphere, and ALL of it would be trapped in the ground, nitrogen levels will increase and eventually become intolerable amount for breathing. Carbon dioxide is what increases the oxygen levels because plants convert it to oxygen. Kapish?

Global warming shlobal warming. Right now its significantly cooler than lets say 50 million years ago. We all know back then there was a llot of CO2 in the atmosphere, which actually encouraged explosion of plant life, diversification, warmer temperatures, and more oxygen in the atmosphere!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Actually, today's carbon dioxide levels are very low compared to other eras of Earth's history. Oxygen levels are smaller now for crying out loud than millions of years ago (read above). Its the nitrogen you should be worried about, its composition of the atmosphere has been increasing steadily - because most of carbon dioxide is trapped in soil, water, plants. If there would be no CO2 in atmosphere, and ALL of it would be trapped in the ground, nitrogen levels will increase and eventually become intolerable amount for breathing. Carbon dioxide is what increases the oxygen levels because plants convert it to oxygen. Kapish? Global warming shlobal warming. Right now its significantly cooler than lets say 50 million years ago. We all know back then there was a llot of CO2 in the atmosphere, which actually encouraged explosion of plant life, diversification, warmer temperatures, and more oxygen in the atmosphere!

You know, thats all find and dandy. Nevermind that you keep using wikipedia, but what your not taking into account is that the levels needed to sustain life of us humans, and the levels that have existed millions of years ago are not the same. The same for many other species. You fail to take into account that we dont need an explosion of life, we already have one and the levels to conserve all this life is what is at stake. We are warming the globe, and i think you havent shown otherwise. Fuck, you've even acknowledged it by saying that the earth did warm up before due to increases in CO2 levels. Now im not saying that global warming is the only issue needed to resolve in order for us to survive as a species without destroying the earth, that would be silly and myopic. What you can not do is say that we humans are not heating the earth up due to all the CO2 we are releasing. There is no evidence that can be used to deny this phenomena.

Also your little theory of 'we need CO2 in the atmosphere', well yes genius we do, but we have too much right now which is the problem. So dont go bringing straw men into this discussion.

And also, please point me to a source other than wikipedia where i can confirm your facts, namely that the amount of CO2 we are releasing is negligible.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX You know, thats all find and dandy. Nevermind that you keep using wikipedia, but what your not taking into account is that the levels needed to sustain life of us humans, and the levels that have existed millions of years ago are not the same. The same for many other species. You fail to take into account that we dont need an explosion of life, we already have one and the levels to conserve all this life is what is at stake. We are warming the globe, and i think you havent shown otherwise. Fuck, you've even acknowledged it by saying that the earth did warm up before due to increases in CO2 levels. Now im not saying that global warming is the only issue needed to resolve in order for us to survive as a species without destroying the earth, that would be silly and myopic. What you can not do is say that we humans are not heating the earth up due to all the CO2 we are releasing. There is no evidence that can be used to deny this phenomena. Also your little theory of 'we need CO2 in the atmosphere', well yes genius we do, but we have too much right now which is the problem. So dont go bringing straw men into this discussion. And also, please point me to a source other than wikipedia where i can confirm your facts, namely that the amount of CO2 we are releasing is negligible.

I already made my points clear. You're leaning toward greenhouse emissions, some of which like carbon dioxide are actually good for Earth. Life will die without CO2 in the atmosphere! And there's less and less of it up there! And it is significantly cooler right now than the last time we had 35% oxygen in atmosphere. There is no evidence that humans are causing global warming, its just speculation. Just like you cant prove humans caused the Little Ice Age in medieval times! On the other hand, historic records, ice core samples provide ovewhelming evidence that climate change is happening, happened many time over, and will continue to happen. It will coontinue to warm, cool, doesnt matter if humans are around or not. As a matter of a fact, the population boom of the 1800s happened at the end of the Little Ice Age, development of oil as fossil fuel, and social/medicinal developments. Many people fail to notice that humans have actually developed into a civilization BECAUSE OF WARMING, THE END OF THE LAST ICE AGE, AND CONTINUOUS "GLOBAL WARMING" HAS MADE US A CIVILIZATION. Cant you see it? Did humans cause the glaciers to melt and retreat at the end of the last ice age? Can you see the light at the end of the tunnel?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium The true natives I am talking about are the ones who are still untouched by civilization far and deep in rainforests, south africa's semi-bush deserts, mountains, etc. The rest have been killed, assimilated and converted to our lifestyle ;-)

Do you wear Birkenstocks? Sure you don't just want to use a blowgun?

I've found them!


Aaaaahhh....this is the life!

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I already made my points clear. You're leaning toward greenhouse emissions, some of which like carbon dioxide are actually good for Earth. Life will die without CO2 in the atmosphere! And there's less and less of it up there! And it is significantly cooler right now than the last time we had 35% oxygen in atmosphere. There is no evidence that humans are causing global warming, its just speculation. Just like you cant prove humans caused the Little Ice Age in medieval times! On the other hand, historic records, ice core samples provide ovewhelming evidence that climate change is happening, happened many time over, and will continue to happen. It will coontinue to warm, cool, doesnt matter if humans are around or not. As a matter of a fact, the population boom of the 1800s happened at the end of the Little Ice Age, development of oil as fossil fuel, and social/medicinal developments. Many people fail to notice that humans have actually developed into a civilization BECAUSE OF WARMING, THE END OF THE LAST ICE AGE, AND CONTINUOUS "GLOBAL WARMING" HAS MADE US A CIVILIZATION. Cant you see it? Did humans cause the glaciers to melt and retreat at the end of the last ice age? Can you see the light at the end of the tunnel?

I have presented evidence that explains your points, and i can find more from scholarly peer reviewed journals. You have yet to show one reliable source backing up your ideas. The only source you can come up with is wikipedia, which is not accepted even in first year university courses, or even worse high school courses. Now you can state you opinion all you want but without hard data to back them up its nothing more than opinion. What im stating is the consensus of the scientific community on how to interpret the data we currently have. So you keep on speculating all you want, global warming has been proved, but i guess we can't expect much from you anyways, maybe if i stated that aliens are the ones involved in global warming you would be more inclined to accept it.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Shakka Do you wear Birkenstocks? Sure you don't just want to use a blowgun? I've found them! Aaaaahhh....this is the life!

Thanks, Shakka. That video is AWESOME (and its not sarcasm). I have outmost respect for Bushmen. Even the video says: Bushmen are so content, no crimes, no laws, no police, no judges, no rulers, no violence, no wars, they believe Gods only put good things and useful things on the Earth. Nothing is bad or evil. Even poisonous snake is not evil, just stay away from sharp end ;-) They never punish a child, or harm other people. When they spear an animal, they actually use a special brew to dip the spear in, and they only hit the animal with it in a spot not to hurt animal much, and wait until animal falls asleep from the special brew. The hunter then apologizes to the animal, and explains that his family needs the meat.

They have no sense of ownership at all. Nothing can be owned. They use mostly wood and bone, no concrete.

I was so pissed off, and still am when Botswana government forced these people off their land, fucking bastards. Most of them have been forced to move into cities, learn languages, school, force against their will.

BTW, awesome disco music is playing!!!!!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture