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More Here

I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well.

What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did.

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Was your grandfather a sailor or red army soldier?

Red Army soldier.

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No offense, but you've wasted your life with obtaining your dimploma in WW2-related issues. You were fed some information from sources that dont know themselves about the actual extent of the terror. I said I BELIEVE 20 million people died. You say 2 million. Those 2 million are hard evidence. Communists hid their crimes when they could, the number is greater. I know because my family members were not included in the purges (the "official" documents). Why? Because often times communists would NOT do paperwork on every seized person suspected of being anti-communist. They would be rounded up, driven away, blidnfolded, shot and buried somewhere far away. Easy as that. No papertrail. I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens. The ones in the camps were mainly political, religious prisoners to be made examples of. There was anywhere up to a thousand concentration camps all over the country. Some of them were later converted to civilian uses.

No, you said that more people perished in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's camps (crucial point) and I called you on it pointing out that about 2 million died in Stalin's camps, whereas at least 5 million if not 6 died in Hitler's camps.

Then you realized that you fucked up and started bringing in collectivization, famine, ethnic displacement to inflate the number of deaths that you wanted to attribute to Stalin.

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I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

So let's recap what we have here. You posted a topic, was offended when Stalin started winning by 50% and started arguing against it using inflated facts and false arguments and comparisons of Hitler to Stalin (god knows why).

I corrected you, pointed out your errors and showed to you that Hitler was in fact much worse thasn Stalin if you really wanted to make that comparison. Then you realized that you screwed, you forgot to factor in famine, collectivization and ethnic displacement in order to inflate the total amount of death that you can attribute to Stalin and that's fine. Inflate that number all you want.

The fact remains that Stalin transformed an 18th century agrarian society into a 20th century world power in a span of 20 years, defeated a foe that was the greatest enemy that Russia has ever faced, a foe that was not only contend to subjugate the Russians as the Teutons or the Mongols might have been content with in times past - but a foe who wanted nothing short of exterminating the Russian people. Finally Stalin placed Russia on a global pedestal and made it one of the 2 major superpowers in the world with the consequences that reverberate into the 21st century as evident by Russia being one of the few states possessing nuclear weapons and retaining 1 of the 5 UNSC permanent seats out of 198 countries that could have been instead.

The price paid by your traitorous brethren was a small one to elevate a country and a people to ther level of prestige that it currently enjoys. And if it wasn't for Stalin, Russia would be just about as relevant in 2007 as some backwater cossack republic in bumfuck, Asia.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well. What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did. Red Army soldier. No, you said that more people perished in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's camps (crucial point) and I called you on it pointing out that about 2 million died in Stalin's camps, whereas at least 5 million if not 6 died in Hitler's camps. Then you realized that you fucked up and started bringing in collectivization, famine, ethnic displacement to inflate the number of deaths that you wanted to attribute to Stalin. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. So let's recap what we have here. You posted a topic, was offended when Stalin started winning by 50% and started arguing against it using inflated facts and false arguments and comparisons of Hitler to Stalin (god knows why). I corrected you, pointed out your errors and showed to you that Hitler was in fact much worse thasn Stalin if you really wanted to make that comparison. Then you realized that you screwed, you forgot to factor in famine, collectivization and ethnic displacement in order to inflate the total amount of death that you can attribute to Stalin and that's fine. Inflate that number all you want. The fact remains that Stalin transformed an 18th century agrarian society into a 20th century world power in a span of 20 years, defeated a foe that was the greatest enemy that Russia has ever faced, a foe that was not only contend to subjugate the Russians as the Teutons or the Mongols might have been content with in times past - but a foe who wanted nothing short of exterminating the Russian people. Finally Stalin placed Russia on a global pedestal and made it one of the 2 major superpowers in the world with the consequences that reverberate into the 21st century as evident by Russia being one of the few states possessing nuclear weapons and retaining 1 of the 5 UNSC permanent seats out of 198 countries that could have been instead. The price paid by your traitorous brethren was a small one to elevate a country and a people to ther level of prestige that it currently enjoys. And if it wasn't for Stalin, Russia would be just about as relevant in 2007 as some backwater cossack republic in bumfuck, Asia.

I dont dispute that less people died in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's anymore. I dispute the number of people who perished in ALL STALIN'S PURGES, NOT JUST CONCENTRATION CAMPS. And many more died without the papertrail. Stalin was still evil. He hurt and altered the country in such a way, that ethnic minorities are still scarred today, 50 years from the events. Stalin was the fuck up because of whom Russia has so many problems. His dumb collectivization methods eventually ruined the Soviet economy, and Soviet Union collapsed in a pile of smoke. And all the lies emerged ;-)

HHAHAHAHA, HIGH LEVELS OF PRESTIGE MY ASS Who gives a shit about prestige when half of your family is fucking dead??? Fuck prestige. I'd rather have my family. And so would you.

HAHAHA, placed on global pedestal BECAUSE OF SLAVE LABOUR, FORCED INDUSTRIALIZATION that cost millions of people their lives. Yay, what a great achievement, build on people's blood.

You just admire the communists too much.

These people who opposed the communists werent traitors. THey were fighting against the dictatorship and oppression they thought was hurtful to their way of life, their culture, religion. These people were right for not just sitting there and watching while communists butcher people, detroy churches, history, family connections, instilling feat into people, forcing famine, etc. etc. etc.

Man oh man, this forum is filled with idiots. There are too few bright minded people here. All people who admire dictators like Stalin are insane. Anyone who oppressed his people so much would have been able to achieve super-human developments torturing people like that. Monsterous.

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Feb-04-2007 at 22:36

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well. What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did. Red Army soldier.

So now both you and magnetonium have relatives who died in russia in world war II?

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Originally posted by Krypton So now both you and magnetonium have relatives who died in russia in world war II?

Russia suffered terribly since the onset of the communists. There was not a single family (except the highest eshelons of elite) which didnt lose a family member or a close relative to the communist crimes, world war 2. Millions of innocent civilians were murdered, and most intellectual fled the country. And World War II was a blunder of its own. Then there were the collectivization deaths, ethnic cleansing, trials, gulags, nkvd murders, great purges, massive resettlements of people, lies, economic blunders, destruction of historic monuments, oppression of freedoms and rights, lack of independent unbiased judicial system, etc. etc. = a TOTAL DICKTATORSHIP.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Russia suffered terribly since the onset of the communists. There was not a single family (except the highest eshelons of elite) which didnt lose a family member or a close relative to the communist crimes, world war 2. Millions of innocent civilians were murdered, and most intellectual fled the country. And World War II was a blunder of its own. Then there were the collectivization deaths, ethnic cleansing, trials, gulags, nkvd murders, great purges, massive resettlements of people, lies, economic blunders, destruction of historic monuments, oppression of freedoms and rights, lack of independent unbiased judicial system, etc. etc. = a TOTAL DICKTATORSHIP.

Now you want to save Russia from the communists. You know, you sure are sounding like a nazis. Are you a nazis? Because I heard St. Petersburg is now the capital for neo-nazis. You should feel at home there little nazis boy.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Now you want to save Russia from the communists. You know, you sure are sounding like a nazis. Are you a nazis? Because I heard St. Petersburg is now the capital for neo-nazis. You should feel at home there little nazis boy.

You were the one who voted for Stalin - and he wasnt much different from Hitler. No, I hated both nazis/fascists and communists/socialists.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

who the hell is voting for stalin?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN who the hell is voting for stalin?

The 'kewl kidz' that think mass murder is funny I guess.

Gorbachev. how can you not like "Glasnost"?

...it just rolls off the tongue.

Stalin was a Georgian, but that's besides the point

He was a great leader in the context of leading his country through the 30's and into WWII. After that, his harsh rule didn't have any place, nor need.

My own personal choice would be Gorbachev. He realized what trouble the country was in, and how continuing along the existing path of passive-aggressive confrontation with the west was ultimately counter-productive. It's a shame that Yeltsin seized power when he did and Gorbachev didn't really get the chance to manage the post-cold-war transistion to a greater extent.

Putin is an evil genius. He scares the fuck out of me, yet I find him to be a very intriguing character.

Gorbachev was a weak leader. He was unable to succeed in his reforms - I remember waiting in long lines for food rations - and he was a factor to blame for the eventual fall of Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was over when Gorbachev abdicated. And the last time Russian leader abdicated, another empire collapsed - the Russian Empire when Nicholas II abdicated. Yay, history repeated itself. And the rest is miserable history ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Gorbachev was a weak leader. He was unable to succeed in his reforms - I remember waiting in long lines for food rations

where do you think you would be if the CP was still in power?

it was his reforms that had the most influence in what we know today. what i think is so revolutionary for him was that he was the CP and thus led to it's demise. am i talking out of my ass?

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and he was a factor to blame for the eventual fall of Soviet Union.

thats why he should be revered IMO