I think you're confusing Capitalism with Democracy there.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium So, you're saying that you never expected or anticipated that Chavez would do this??? You didnt think he would nationalize the industries, corporations? That was his campaign, to shut down America's influence in his country. Aimed against the rich and foreign powers like USA. Thats not very democratic now, is it?

I can't make sense of your insane ramblings, you crazy hobo. You'll have to clarify what you are trying to say.

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Originally posted by Sunsnail I think you're confusing Capitalism with Democracy there.

Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand in the Western world ;-) Capitalism is the freedom and right to make your own fortune or something like that. Attack on capitalism would look like an attack on freedom, attack on democracy ;-)

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I can't make sense of your insane ramblings, you crazy hobo. You'll have to clarify what you are trying to say.

My point is:

Did you expect Chavez when elected to nationalize, close monopolies, corporations and foreign (primary American) influence in Venezuela? His campaign is aimed against the rich, against the American-backed forces.

Now ask yourself - if he made such vows during the election campaign, why do you whine about Chavez attacking "democracy"? Chavez' attempt to do his "reforms" and policies like in this food shops case, is no different than passing Patriot Act in United States - thats an attack on democracy.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand in the Western world ;-) Capitalism is the freedom and right to make your own fortune or something like that. Attack on capitalism would look like an attack on freedom, attack on democracy ;-)

LOL, I am making this into my sig. Comedy gold.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium My point is: Did you expect Chavez when elected to nationalize, close monopolies, corporations and foreign (primary American) influence in Venezuela? His campaign is aimed against the rich, against the American-backed forces. Now ask yourself - if he made such vows during the election campaign, why do you whine about Chavez attacking "democracy"? Chavez' attempt to do his "reforms" and policies like in this food shops case, is no different than passing Patriot Act in United States - thats an attack on democracy.

Settle down.

All I did was point out that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, because you seem to think that they are. Actually, if you think about states that seem to be the most prosperous and best places to live in, it is typically states with a high socialism component integrated into their political system.

For example, here's a list of top 10 states to live in according to survey by The Economist

1 Ireland
2 Switzerland
3 Norway
4 Luxembourg
5 Sweden
6 Australia
7 Iceland
8 Italy
9 Denmark
10 Spain


See what I mean?

Anyways, you seem to be highly agitated and incoherent today, did you forget to take your meds or something? Looking out for you, buddy.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Settle down. All I did was point out that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, because you seem to think that they are. Actually, if you think about states that seem to be the most prosperous and best places to live in, it is typically states with a high socialism component integrated into their political system. For example, here's a list of top 10 states to live in according to survey by The Economist 1 Ireland 2 Switzerland 3 Norway 4 Luxembourg 5 Sweden 6 Australia 7 Iceland 8 Italy 9 Denmark 10 Spain See what I mean? Anyways, you seem to be highly agitated and incoherent today, did you forget to take your meds or something? Looking out for you, buddy.

Man, you are gold. You are comparing European countries that have for decades been stable politically and in most cases economically as well to an unstable Venezuela. Venezuela is no such country to match your criteria, I dont know where you get the statistics making Venezuela similar to the mentioned prosperous European countries. There was no such thing as democracy in Venezuela, otherwise leaders would not rewrite constitution every 10 years, gun down protester crowds and vow to crush America's influence, or suspend the Constitution as a pro-American "democratic" dictator in Venezuela did in 1989 to suppress public protests. Venezuela's system, economic and political status of the last three decades is nowhere near that of its European counterparts. Did Italy suspend its Constitution in last month's massive football riots in Sicily?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Man, you are gold. You are comparing European countries that have for decades been stable politically and in most cases economically as well to an unstable Venezuela. Venezuela is no such country to match your criteria, I dont know where you get the statistics making Venezuela similar to the mentioned prosperous European countries. There was no such thing as democracy in Venezuela, otherwise leaders would not rewrite constitution every 10 years, gun down protester crowds and vow to crush America's influence, or suspend the Constitution as a pro-American "democratic" dictator in Venezuela did in 1989 to suppress public protests. Venezuela's system, economic and political status of the last three decades is nowhere near that of its European counterparts. Did Italy suspend its Constitution in last month's massive football riots in Sicily?

I wasn't saying that, though I would gladly make that comparison. What I was saying is that you seem to think that:

Communism and Democracy are diametrically opposed. They are not and I provided examples where not only principles of socialism and democracy function, but also examples where they function so well as to provide some of the best living environments in the world.

Furthermore, Chavez isn't a communist, he is a social democrat. This is fairly evident by the fact that he uses government funds to subsidize a ton of services not only for his own people, but even for people in other countries (such as heating oil for low income families in US)

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Furthermore, Chavez isn't a communist, he is a social democrat. This is fairly evident by the fact that he uses government funds to subsidize a ton of services not only for his own people, but even for people in other countries (such as heating oil for low income families in US)

Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world, and who actually had within their own borders free education, hospital care and such and such also fall into this category?

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world, and who actually had within their own borders free education, hospital care and such and such also fall into this category?

Depending which communist leaders you're referring to. Not everything is as absolute as you'd like to believe. In my opinion, China right now is pretty much communist in name only, some states are practicing extreme forms of Stalinism like North Korea. But that's another topic altogether.

However, in Venezuela there is private enterprise and private corporations in Venezuela as well elections - so comparing them to communist states is not only unfair, but also inaccurate.

Government controls key industries that are vital to the survival of the state, private enterprise picks up slack elsewhere. What's wrong with that?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world

yeah that was called Communist imperialism. again, you've managed to conflate two distinct arguments and now on your way to a third defending Chavez it seems like.

BTW Venezuela's inflation rate at this moment is 18.4%, thats about standard for a post-war communist state.