now its getting annoying
When I said Arafat has no army behind him, its meant to be no defense army, understand? Read the context of my statemnt before you just pull the trigger....

70% are terrorists...oh well, who said that, sharon?

Now to the public opinion. Ok, my comment considered the past. I mena there are severals organisation who critic the israeli behaviour long time ago. but the "normal" media just wrote "oh another terrorist attack, those asses" and dont explain the circumstance one bit like Sharon forces the settlement (and sorry those illegal settlers who got killed I dont consider civilizians) or that the palis have less rights in some cases.
Now the reporting has changed, I agree, and Israel is getting bad publicity in the media. But hey, If you smoke through a whole village you will get bad publicity no matter what folk you are.
Add to that, that Israel is considered the only real democracy in the middle east, but honestly they dont act any better than the rest who live there. Israel cant make such barbarians moves because they are considered to the "civilisized world". You are not surprised if a "bandit nation" do something this bad, but a democratic country cant do that without getting some critic.

Arafat has to be gone, but who should replace him?

Sharon, who is not better than sharon by any means, HAS absolutely to go, and he is much easier to replace.

If you heard Peres, you should think something is wrong. His only reason he doesnt retire is because "you dont retire in war".

But all this mess shows once again that the International community is not able to solve serious problems. Ther should have been neutral troops since a very long time, but no...now you have the mess!

I honestly believe we are slidding to a new world war and thats not funny...

___________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

You Europeans claim to be "objective" but in reality are as closed-minded and blind in your beliefs as many others.

quote:

If you look at the "pro-Palestine" posts, notice that none of them claims Arafat is right, that suicide bombings is ok and ultimately that Palestineans are innocent victims.

No, there have been claims that the Palestinians are innocent victims, in this and the previous thread. I actually made the point that the Palestinians kill innocent civilians in their suicide bombings, whereas the Israeli army kills terrorists and gunmen who organize street terror.

quote:

No matter how much dirt you dig up on Arafat and how awful statistics on suicide bombers, that does *not* (in my book) legitamize Israels leaderships way of conduct.

Demagoguery at its finest.
If Arafat organized an attack that killed your mother, would you not to want to block further violence from a group of maniacs who grew up with hate and want death for Israel?

quote:

but my problem is that those "democratic" leaders CONTINUE to tell Arafat to stop these attacks. But at this very moment he has almost no instrument to do so...that is the moronic part.

On the contrary, he does, because his bunker is a command center for the Palestinian Authority. As a matter of fact, he organizes new attacks -- that should tell you something about his abilities and his control. And why didn't he stop the attacks before??

And also, cweb, don't think that all those "democratic" leaders are stupid; they understand the situation 1000 times better than you. Just an advice for you to be more critical about yourself and your assessments.

---
EDIT: Don't close this thread; but yoepus, please stop writing those long-ass posts, keep it concise and readable.

___________________

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Last edited by Eugene on Apr-13-2002 at 13:54

Ok I give up on this part with the continuing claim of stop the terrorist, you didnt get my point...

Its right that the suicide bombing kill almost 100% civilzians. But on the other hand its very ignorant to say the Israel force just kill terrorists and gunmen. How about dschenin? all terrorist? a very easy way of seeing the thing.

The problem i have is that not few guys here see this conflict black-and-white.

I do not apologize for the siucide bombings, they are 1000% wrong, bbut on the other hand in my opionion its legitmate to try to explain the reason why they do such things.

Please show me one effective strategy who the palis could use to protest military? They dont have plan to bomb a village to stone-age, they dont have tanks to roll over a town.

You guys just see the suicide bombings and claim that false and bad whatever. but on the other hand some of you support Sharon? Cmon how can someone with a sane brain support this war-criminal? ^Realise that he is not interest in peace by no means, he forces the settlement in the PALISTENEAN regions! he ordered very right-wing and religious fantatics in his cabinet, how is that? he is no better than Milosevic on the contrary!

___________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

I agree with Scorchio here. CLose this one. If u wanna discuss do it at least in the old thread. We shouldnt flood the boards with that subject only.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by cweb Ok I give up on this part with the continuing claim of stop the terrorist, you didnt get my point...

Its a bad point, I explained he has complete control over Gaza for instance. Furthermore his condemnation of attacks against innocent today proves he can do more. The next step is to do such condemnations live, or on TV, in Arabic. However, despite all these attempts I don't think Israelis would believe any gestures Arafat does, even if he whole heartedly and geniunely changed his mind about terror and wants peace now. He has lied to many times to the Israelis, nothing he does or says any more can justify him in their minds. This is why I believe he's got to go.

quote:

Its right that the suicide bombing kill almost 100% civilzians. But on the other hand its very ignorant to say the Israel force just kill terrorists and gunmen. How about dschenin? all terrorist? a very easy way of seeing the thing.

No the differance is Israel kills civilians true, but not intentionally. They do not aim their rifles at someone for no purpose and say "oh that guy looks like a civilian, lets kill him". On the other hand you have homicide bombers, who say "Oh there are a lot of civilians over there, let me kill them". Can you see the moral difference? Furthermore you have to differentiate between the aggressor, and those that act in self-defense.
Was America not justified in WWII because it killed more Nazis and german civilians then the Nazis killed Americans? This is the argument you are using. The fact is if the Nazis would have kept to themselves America would not have entered the war, and none of those germans would have been killed. Same can be applied in this war.

quote:

I do not apologize for the siucide bombings, they are 1000% wrong, bbut on the other hand in my opionion its legitmate to try to explain the reason why they do such things.

So you are conceding to terrorism by trying to explain it. They got you there man. Terrorism is never justified. NEVER!

You want to talk politics and finish the conflict about Palestine, no problem, talk politics. If you want to do it by terrorism forget about it.

quote:

Please show me one effective strategy who the palis could use to protest military?

Have you heard of Ghandi? How about South Africa? Classic examples of NONE-violent resistance to a success. The Palestinians never even tried this strategy, they never tried gurellia warfare, and militancy, no they jumped head in to terrorism. I see a problem with this, don't you?

Terrosim is NEVER justifed.

quote:

but on the other hand some of you support Sharon? Cmon how can someone with a sane brain support this war-criminal? ^Realise that he is not interest in peace by no means, he forces the settlement in the PALISTENEAN regions! he ordered very right-wing and religious fantatics in his cabinet, how is that? he is no better than Milosevic on the contrary!

First of all, we don't know about Milosevic.. if you listen to his trial in the Hague he has some very compelling arguments. It seems another conflict Europe got on the wrong side there to me.

Second of all, Sharon is an alleged war-criminal. Newsweek or something like that once called him a war-criminal and he sued them in a US court for slander, they're he proved he can not be called a war-criminal. Second of all, I have no proble with Sharon, however if you guys want to remove him.. sure no problem, it will allow someone that is more right-wing then him (imagine that!) to take office, and he will not have the stupid persona nas stigma associated to Sharon. Namely Bibi Netenyahu.

Thirdly, you might not like settlers, but all they take is land, not lives. If you had to give up something, what would you perfer your land or your life? Can you see the difference?

You want them out, stop terrorism, talk politics. Israel removed the settlers from Sinia when they negotiated a peace treaty with Israel. And you want to hear an interesting story? After the peace-treaty Israel ordered all the settlers in the Sinia to move out of there. But there was one settlement that refused to move out, and decieded to stay. Israel wanting to make good on its word, decieded it would have to forcefully remove the settlers since they would not move. So they contacted the army, and sent Sharon (imagine that), who was incharge of a batalion who went to the settlement, and forcefully removed the settlers back into Israel.

Yoepus
If at first you do succeed, try not to look astonished.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I know. I just don't think 97% equals 100% (which is what the U.N. has called for), hence the word "entirely" in my post.

The UN does NOT call for 100%. Indeed if it were to call for 100% resolution 242 would say ALL the TERRITORIES. INSTEAD, the UN DOES call for a negotiation between both sides to resolve the conflict.

Second of all, have you heard of a thing called COMPROMISE?
How is a 100% of everything you want compromise exactly? You understand you have two parties here, they can not get 100% of what they want (this would result in a breakdown of negotiations, and a call for war.. hmm imagine that).
If you want a successful negotiation, and most of the time a good negotiation would grant 50% of what one party wants, and 50% of what the other party wants, you have to compromise.

If Israel would give the Palestinians 80% of all the land, no Jerusalem, and no right of return, this would be comparable to a 50-50 compromise.

Yoepus
In a speech today, President Bush chastised both the Israelis and the Palestinians. As usual, Bush was trying to straddle both sides of the fence. But he may have gone a little too far when he started talking about "compassionate terrorism."

cweb
your avatar and what it represents suck big time

just wanted to make that statement. Sorry to disrupt your discusion.

You're suggesting that terrorism is the only form of protest available to the palestinians. They have never tried any other form of protest. In fact they undermine teir own chances at getting what they want - every time a cease-fire is agreed to, in order for negotiations to proceed, it is broken by terrorist acts. Israel is the one who is limited by the conditions of the political climate in the matter:

Condition 1) Negotiations cannot go ahead without a total ceasefire, as negotiating after a terrorist act would only lead to more terrorism.

Condition 2) Every time a ceasefire is negotiated, Palestinian terrorists break it and Arafat says - "sorry I can do nothing about it", even when he still had a police force, and even when he was given the names and suspected locations of terrorists. If he truly can do nothing (which is doubtful), even under such advantageous conditions, then what is his part of the ceasefire agreement?

Condition 3) Even when offered 97% of what he wants Arafat can only reply with hostility. While not 100%, it certainly would have been a good start, considering he has 0% right now. Arafat shows no sign of wanting to negotiate reasonably.

Condition 4) Even when Israel responds by lecting a right-wing leader, Arafat continues to do nothing in response to continued requests to do something stop terrorism.

Condition 5) Terrorist acts continue to increase.

What other choice does Israel have other than to show the terrorists that they mean business.

___________________
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"also can someone post the link to my mom's forum, thank you!" - Originally posted by miamitrance04
"dude man its not me its what the world does to me. Trust me I'm a normal person people just constantly fuck with me." Originally posted by ********
"I can see Lira getting a hard-on already. And believe me, Brazilian ass rape is the worst." - Originally posted by Meat187

why does my avatar suck? because he is a "terrorist" oe what?

Ok what could the Palis do:

-somethin like Gandhi? Please show me ONE more person who has done something like this. The normal guy would never protest in this peaceful way even its perhaps the most effective.
-guerilla tactic. yes that could be a possibility but the "terrain" is not that good like say in Vietnam or even In Afghanistan with all those hills. But yes its a possibility.

I do not apologize for these attacks. But hey, if its forbidden to reason why they do this or why they do this that way, then i dont know. You cant just respnd without thinking about the reason, because if you could you should eliminate every time the reason and not the symptoms (ok here thats perhaps a bit difficult).

to the intention of killing someone:
yes the Palis go after civilzians for two reasons i guess:
-they want to shock
- and like i said before its much easier to blow you up in a supermarket than in a military basis (but they have done that as well i think).

on the other hand. If you justifiy a somewhat "massacre" by just pointing out the good intention its just not right. you can kill terrorists man by man or you can roll over a group of people so you kill the terrorits as well. but if you justify this, you copuld justify the 9-11 attack on the Pentagon as well, at least there were military persons perhaps responsible for some mistake back in the middle east, but there were a helluva lot more people hust doing their simple job there.

___________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

one thing i wanted to say (it hasnt really something to do with the actual discussion).

The palistenenan folk is basically alone, no support. Its not like every arab country around israel like the palis, on the contrary. they all hate israel but they alkso do not like the palis. the actual politics has to consider that in my opinion because groups OUTSIDE of Israel had put oil in this fire!!!!

___________________
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness - only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that... The chain reaction of evil--hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars--must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

quote:

-somethin like Gandhi? Please show me ONE more person who has done something like this. The normal guy would never protest in this peaceful way even its perhaps the most effective.

Check out the history of almost any country's union movement. Read Nelson Mandela's Biography. Checkout the thousands of dissidents in Chile (who underwent horrendous torture and still did not condone violence).

quote:

I do not apologize for these attacks. But hey, if its forbidden to reason why they do this or why they do this that way, then i dont know. You cant just respnd without thinking about the reason, because if you could you should eliminate every time the reason and not the symptoms (ok here thats perhaps a bit difficult).

You are allowed to speculate regarding the motivations of Palestinian terrorists, and the concept of jihad just like you can speculate about some countries' eagerness to institute a brutal brand of sharia law. Both IMHO have nothing to do with Islam as a religion or a lack of alternative options, they have more to do with uncivilised cultures with deeply embedded outdated beliefs.

quote:

yes the Palis go after civilzians for two reasons i guess: -they want to shock - and like i said before its much easier to blow you up in a supermarket than in a military basis (but they have done that as well i think).

and:
- they want revenge for the civilians killed or deprived of a free state on their side.

quote:

on the other hand. If you justifiy a somewhat "massacre" by just pointing out the good intention its just not right. you can kill terrorists man by man or you can roll over a group of people so you kill the terrorits as well. but if you justify this, you copuld justify the 9-11 attack on the Pentagon as well, at least there were military persons perhaps responsible for some mistake back in the middle east, but there were a helluva lot more people hust doing their simple job there.

Collateral damage is an inevitability in modern combat, particularly in an urban setting. Think of the damage caused by the most heavily funded and the most proffessional military unit in the world in Vietnam, Kosovo, and more recently Afghanistan (I'm sure the true figures of civillians killed will surface soon).
Besides the Israelis tried to pursuade their best avenue for dealing with the terrorists with o collateral damage (Arafat) for years, to no avail... they simply ran out of options/patience.

___________________
"my son will be a gienues(sp?)" - Originally posted by Googooly
"many species of bear give blowjobs." - Originally posted by Sunsnail.. NOW CONFIRMED BY PHOTO EVIDENCE!
"astroboy is brave and gentle and wise." - Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
"ew! i wouldn't go anywhere near a homeless dudes butthole... not even if i was sodomizing him with a poison ivy cactus dildo" - Originally posted by lücid
"also can someone post the link to my mom's forum, thank you!" - Originally posted by miamitrance04
"dude man its not me its what the world does to me. Trust me I'm a normal person people just constantly fuck with me." Originally posted by ********
"I can see Lira getting a hard-on already. And believe me, Brazilian ass rape is the worst." - Originally posted by Meat187

quote:

Originally posted by Eugene You Europeans claim to be "objective" but in reality are as closed-minded and blind in your beliefs as many others.

That statement has absolutely no value in this discussion. First of all it's a red herring and secondly you supply no facts whatsoever to back up your postulates.

quote:

Originally posted by Eugene No, there have been claims that the Palestinians are innocent victims, in this and the previous thread. I actually made the point that the Palestinians kill innocent civilians in their suicide bombings, whereas the Israeli army kills terrorists and gunmen who organize street terror.

Ok. There might have been claims like that in other threads, I was focusing on this one. And in this thread I fail to see any such posts, but maybe you can point them out to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Eugene Demagoguery at its finest. If Arafat organized an attack that killed your mother, would you not to want to block further violence from a group of maniacs who grew up with hate and want death for Israel?

I don't know if that's supposed to be a compliment, if it is: Thanks!
On your follow up, I really can't say whether I would go for revenge if somebody killed my mother. I hope not, but I really have to be in the situation before I can know for sure. No matter what I'll do though, killing for revenge is still not (in my book I hasten to add) morally sound.