quote:

Originally posted by bubble this news makes me embarrassed to be an american.

were you an adult when Clinton was President? seriously. i'm not being an asshole. were you?

quote:

Originally posted by bubble to be fair, i was embarrassed then too, but it's not a fair comparison. it's one thing to carry on democratisation crusade across the globe and subsequently hypocritically circumvent the judicial process, while it's another to cum on some intern's dress, or lie about it, get convicted and face the jury as clinton did and not get forced from office. i don't recall that clinton beat his chest about morality like bush has about suggesting that anyone responsible for any violations would get punished.

no dude, i'm not talking about Clintons lying to Congress. he deserved what he got but i don't think i've ever made that an issue in this forum other than maybe in jest.

no, i'm talking about Clinton's record on pardons. this is a PARTIAL list of his pardons. alphabetically. notice it only goes to H.

this list does not include his 1999 pardons of 16 FALN terrorists convicted and sentenced anywhere from 35 to 105 years in prison.



Name, Home Town, Offenses:

ALLEN, Verla Jean Everton, Arkansas False statements to agency of United States

ALTIERE, Nicholas M. Las Vegas, Nevada Importation of cocaine

ALTSCHUL, Bernice Ruth Sherman Village, California Conspiracy to commit money laundering

ANDERSON, Joe, Jr. Grove Hill, Alabama Income tax evasion

ANDERSON, William Sterling Spartanburg, South Carolina Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured financial institution, false statements to a federally insured financial institution, wire fraud

AZIZKHANI, Mansour T. Huntsville, Alabama Conspiracy and making false statements in bank loan applications

BABIN, Cleveland Victor, Jr. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Conspiracy to commit offense against the United States by utilizing the U.S. mail in furtherance of a scheme to defraud

BAGLEY, Chris Harmon Harrah, Oklahoma Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine

BANE, Scott Lynn Mahomet, Illinois Unlawful distribution of marijuana

BARBER, Thomas Cleveland Hampton, Florida Issuing worthless checks

BARGON, Peggy Ann Monticello, Illinois Violation of the Lacey Act, violation of the Bald Eagle Protection Act

BHATKA, Tansukhlal Income tax evasion
BLAMPIED, David Roscoe Ketchum, Idaho Conspiracy to distribute cocaine

BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr. Washington, D.C. Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery

BOREL, Arthur David Little Rock, Arkansas Odometer rollback

BOREL, Douglas Charles Conway, Arkansas Odometer rollback

BRABHAM, George Thomas Austin, Texas Making a false statement or report to a federally insured bank

BRASWELL, Almon Glenn Doravilla, Georgia Conspiracy to defraud government with respect to claims; perjury

BROWDER, Leonard Aiken, South Carolina Illegal dispensing of controlled substance and Medicaid fraud

BROWN, David Steven New York, New York Securities fraud and mail fraud

BURLESON, Delores Caroylene, aka Delores Cox Burleson Hanna, Oklahoma Possession of marijuana

BUSTAMANTE, John H. Cleveland, Ohio Wire fraud

CAMPBELL, Mary Louise Ruleville, Mississippi Aiding and abetting the unauthorized use and transfer of food stamps

CANDELARIA, Eloida False information in registering to vote

CAPILI, Dennis Sobrevinas Glendale, California Filing false statements in alien registration

CHAMBERS, Donna Denise Memphis, Tennessee Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and to distribute cocaine, possession with intent to distribute cocaine, use of a telephone to facilitate cocaine conspiracy

CHAPMAN, Douglas Eugene Scott, Arkansas Bank fraud

CHAPMAN, Ronald Keith Scott, Arkansas Bank fraud

CHAVEZ, Francisco Larios Santa Ana, California Aiding and abetting illegal entry of aliens

CISNEROS, Henry G. (his Cabinet Secretary)

CLINTON, Roger (his brother)

COHN, Stuart Harris New Haven, Connecticut 1. Illegal sale of gold options
2. Illegal sale of silver options


COOPER, David Marc Wapakoneta, Ohio Conspiracy to defraud the government

COX, Ernest Harley, Jr. Pine Bluff, Arkansas Conspiracy to defraud a federally insured savings and loan, misapplication of bank funds, false statements

CROSS, John F., Jr. Little Rock, Arkansas Embezzlement by a bank employee

CUNNINGHAM, Rickey Lee Amarillo, Texas Possession with intent to distribute marijuana

DE LABIO, Richard Anthony Baltimore, Maryland Mail fraud, aiding and abetting

DEUTCH, John Described in January 19, 2001 information

DOUGLAS, Richard False statements

DOWNE, Edward Reynolds Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and tax evasion; securities fraud

DUDLEY, Marvin Dean Omaha, Nebraska False statements

DUNCAN, Larry Lee Branson, Missouri Altering an automobile odometer

FAIN, Robert Clinton Aiding and assisting in the preparation of a false corporate tax return

FERNANDEZ, Marcos Arcenio Miami, Florida Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana

FERROUILLET, Alvarez Interstate transport of stolen property, money laundering, false statements

FUGAZY, William Denis Harrison, New York Perjury in a bankruptcy proceeding

GEORGE, Lloyd Reid Mail fraud

GOLDSTEIN, Louis Las Vegas, Nevada Possession of goods stolen from interstate shipment

GORDON, Rubye Lee Tampa, Florida Forgery of U.S. Treasury checks

GREEN, Pincus Switzerland

HAMNER, Robert Ivey

>LINK<


i'm not defending Clintons record or much criticizing it.

remember Libby wasn't pardoned. now if Bush's commutation of Libby's jail time makes you "ashamed to be an American", well then, Clinton's record should make you want to shoot yourself in the chest with a 12 guage when you put it all in perspective wouldn't it?

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-03-2007 at 08:28

no one was found to be in violation of the underlying investigation's Foreign Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the Espionage Act.

Plame's case was never intended to be made nor should it have been.

it was immaterial in his conviction yet he was sentenced as if it was. that is what is the fundamental issue at the heart of the Commutation.

Oh man

What a horribly unfunny joke.

Why is this even news? Just about every President pardons/commutes the sentences of the leutenants that helped and protected them. Democrats need to keep their mouths shut on this, just go look at Clinton's record on pardons.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX Why is this even news? Just about every President pardons/commutes the sentences of the leutenants that helped and protected them. Democrats need to keep their mouths shut on this, just go look at Clinton's record on pardons.

I agree. We've seen far more egregious actions than this from many past administrations. And this is surely no surprise as, at least I thought, it was largely expected that Libby would be completely pardoned. He didn't even get off that lightly in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo he does. the Executive's power of pardon can go way beyond just "overturning convicted felons" the President can pardon anyone at anytime whether convicted or even standing trial awaiting conviction or aqquital, whether they want to be pardoned or not for U.S. crime. i think William Jefferson Clinton will be better equipped at explaining what those powers are and where they are derived from:

You’re creating yet another straw man. I’m fully aware of the Presidential power to commute and pardon anyone they deem as fit, but that power is NOT what I am arguing about. Rather, I was arguing in reference to the fact that Libby was not rightfully punished for the crimes he committed.

The President having the ultimate power to overturn a sentencing (and yes, that includes Clinton) is completely lawful, but in no way is it necessarily ethically correct to arbitrarily do so. I feel this way not just towards Bush but towards nearly all Presidents including Clinton, so your righteousness to point out all the pardons from Clinton falls flat with me.

But again you’ve failed to answer why Bush seemingly felt so compelled to arbitrarily allow Libby to commutated while denying over 1,000 requests with crimes ranging all over the place in comparison to Libby’s lying to the FBI and obstructing justice in a FEDERAL case. What logical rationale do you have that places Libby over the rest of these, ESPECIALLY when Bush didn’t even bother with normal proceedings in accordance to the Justice Dept. and waited for all appeals proceedings to be concluded?

You also fail to answer why Bush completely ignored the parole board advise of 15-22 months jail time and felt it necessary for Libby to see no time at all.

quote:

Clinton pardoned convicted terrorist! with sentences ranging from 35 to 105 years! i mean wtf do you expect?

I expect your righteous anger to be directed towards any president who pardons people, including Bush who pardoned a few convicted DRUG felons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._George_W._Bush

Oh wait, you mean to tell me those mandatory sentencing laws Bush is pushing should only apply to people he doesn’t know or like?

quote:

i don't know, is it? my righteous anger is directed at people like you, not Presidents.

Then perhaps we should “expect” you and your neocon bretheren to not have a double-standard when Clinton holds his Constitutional pardoning power (which granted is not the same as commuted, but the result is very similar in this instance of no jail time).

quote:

whatever. it's a big island. this is not about politics.

It has everything to do about politics. You are standing and falling on the rationale of support for Bush actions simply because he can do so WITHOUT answering any sound reason as to why.

Is it really that difficult for you to question your Commander Guy? Jesus, I know robots who rebel against their makers more often than you.

quote:

just because Fitzgerald said it in his sentencing brief does not make it so. he didn't prove anyone was covert and he didn't even attempt to. there was nothing malicious he found in the investigation.

Jesus, Q., you’re worse than some of the creationists I’ve debated. You can’t hold your fucking water in one thread after another with me, failing to hold a coherent argument supported by evidence, but then you turn around, rinse and repeat with the same bullshit that was covered by me long ago.

Well come back and answer my posts in this thread, please:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=2

Before you continue spewing more disproven bullshit again.

quote:

if anything Fitzgerald statement about Libby's obstruction was static in nature which led to him further investigating the subject in which he found nothing.

How does one find anything further when the main culprit of obstructing an investigation is, uhh, obstructing the investigation? Is that really that hard for you to decifer? Again, please tell me how you can divulge that rationale you gave out of this statement. Actually, let’s break it down real slow-like for you since you seem to be a bit hard of understanding:

quote:

(Libby's lies)

i.e. didn’t tell the truth

"made impossible[/QUOTE]

that means it’s not possible

quote:

an accurate evaluation of the role that Mr. Libby and those with whom he worked

that means it wasn’t possible to understand what Libby and those he worked with (i.e. he worked in the Vice President’s office) did

quote:

played in the disclosure of information regarding Ms. Wilson's CIA employment

Meaning it was not possible to see how Libby and those he worked with (VP’s office) played a part in the disclosure (that means revealed) of information about the status of Valerie Plame (that’s Ms. Wilson) employment at the CIA, which as we know from both the CIA, confirmed by CIA employees testimony working with Plame, confirmed by the past two CIA directors, confirmed by Plame’s CIA testimony, confirmed by the Republican prosecutor, confirmed by the Republican judge, and confirmed by the law itself (to which you’re welcome at any time to go back to that thread and discuss otherwise) that she was in fact, covert, ALL BECAUSE OF THE LIES OF LIBBY.

That’s a lot of words. I’m sorry. I know that might be a bit difficult for you, but take your time going through that if you could. We’re not done though:

quote:

and about the motivations for their actions."

Meaning because of Libby’s lies, it wasn’t possible to see how Libby and those he worked with (VP’s office) played a part in the disclosure (that means revealed) of information about the status of Valerie Plame (that’s Ms. Wilson) employment at the CIA (covert status of finding WMD proliferation in Iraq and Iran) AND the reason WHY Libby and the people he worked with (VP’s office – yes that may definitely include Cheney) did what they did.

Can you tell me why they decided to out a CIA covert operative who’s job was to actually protect our country from WMD proliferation from those rogue nations like Iraq and Iran?

quote:

there was no trial. he pleaded to avoid a trial. in fact he gave up his BAR credentials this year to avoid cross-examination in another trial regarding his theft of classified documents in a Senate investigation into his role in the events leading up to 9/11. does it? what are sentencing guidlines for that say if he had plead not guilty? i'm sure you'd be all over those numbers in a heartbeat wouldn't ya?

Again the underlying crime was taking copies of documents rather than the documents themselves. You have added no evidence of substance but idle speculation as to why he took actions to give up his credentials and avoid a trial. Again, do you have DIRECT evidence that his intentions were to take ACTUAL docs? Please submit that now.

Regardless, if Berger was indignant and ignorant enough to believe he was that innocent of his crimes in the same manner that Libby was to believe he actually had a case, and if he was convicted of those crimes, I would fully support the conviction AND SENTENCE. Furthermore, I would be just as equally outraged if Bush or Clinton or any other president pardoned him for such crimes. And I wouldn’t be cheerleading for any president’s power of pardon/commute simply because he has the power to do so in the childish manner that you are exhibiting here for everyone.

quote:

he didn't circumvent anything. his powers are greater than Section 1-2.113 Standards for Considering Commutation Petitions. now if someone else wants to ask for a commuted sentence that is another story entirely and Section 1-2.113 Standards for Considering Commutation Petitions will generally apply.

Again I’m not arguing that the President doesn’t have the power to do what he did. No one is arguing that. What I am pointing out, however, that these actions by Bush or by any President for that matter are quite atypical and unpresidented.

You cannot argue with that by any stretch. Now is there any good rationale as to why he did this, other than “because he can” that you can give?

quote:

this is nothing new. Presidents have done this sort of thing several hundreds of times before.

Not in this manner. Again very atypical, but you’re welcome to point out where a president not more than a month ago stated he wouldn’t interfere, jumped right over the guidelines of the DOJ, didn’t even bother to wait for the appeals courts to finish up, and didn’t even bother REDUCING the sentence (after all he did state that his sentence was EXCESSIVE, not UNWARRANTED or UNNECESSARY) according to the parole board recommendations.

quote:

the jurors determine the verdict or in which case they can't, the Judge can determine a mistrial. the Judge in this case determines the sentence. i don't know what you are getting at.

My point is that you’re pulling someone out of the crowd that has no say on the sentencing procedures. You may as well pull the stenographer and ask for their opinion about sentencing because they hold just as much weight on the sentencing procedure as the juror. That’s why it’s a silly argument for you to hold, but if you want to continue holding it, please tell us how the remaining 11 other jurors felt just for shits and giggles.

quote:

i don't care what whoever wrote that article thinks! the President's reccomendations for Federal mandatory minimum guidelines applies to VIOLENT CRIMINALS AND NARCOTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!! MAKE A F**KING DISTINCTION THAT DOESN"T EVEN BEGIN TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT FFS!!!!!!!!!

Funny how you seemingly overlooked Bush’s pardons of narcotics dealers above. But again, considering this is the GOP’s mantra of being “tough on crime”, I guess it’s only the certain right kind of people they wanna be tough on (i.e. people that aren’t Republicans/Bush donors/whoever they arbitrarily love).

And it’s funny, how truly violent can one get for obstructing justice and lying to the FBI about their role and the VP’s office role in outing a covert CIA agent who’s job is to find WMD proliferation? The repurcussions of that have such a great potential of violent crime beyond all measure.

But I think you have to out of the 26% Bush approval rating crowd to kinda see that. Perhaps you should try a bit of a “different perspective” yourself for a change?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo this is between me and him.

Then PM his ass rather than argue out in public. Your posts are subject to anyone's answers. Sorry.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo shut up.

Happy hangover?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo nope. i just would rather have pkcRAISTLIN respond to my responses to pkcRAISTLIN thats all. if pkcRAISTLIN wants Opus to speak for him i'll respect that. if Opus wants chime in to them otherwise, f**k him. i'm gonna tell him to get f**ked.

That's the second time you've thrown petty insults.

Don't you ever tire of not being a grown up and using a big-boy voice?

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo no one was found to be in violation of the underlying investigation's Foreign Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the Espionage Act.

The investigation is ongoing by Congress and you know it. Furthermore, Bush himself had come out since that December 2005 NYTimes article and flat out stated that he's ignored FISA laws by not needing a warrant for his wiretaps.

Plus we've been through this bullshit all before, only to have you run away from yet another thread. I'm too tired to find that thread as well and ask you to continue posting there, but it would do you credit to cease with your refuted arguments that continually pop up later (like here)

quote:

Plame's case was never intended to be made nor should it have been.

Yes, because outing by the office of the Vice President a CIA covert officer who's fucking job is to protect our country from WMD proliferation in rogue nations like Iraq and Iran, and finding further examination of the role of the VP's office in their participation of coming out with this classified material on the CIA officer being obstructed by Cheney's top aide really isn't material to anyone who's an ardent, undying supporter of this failed Administration, is it?

quote:

it was immaterial in his conviction yet he was sentenced as if it was.

He was sentenced for fucking lying to the FBI and obstruction justice. What, those charges mean nothing to neocon supporters like you?

quote:

that is what is the fundamental issue at the heart of the Commutation.

And this point was essential to Libby's role and the importance of why he was investigated:

quote:

(Libby's lies) ""made impossible an accurate evaluation of the role that Mr. Libby and those with whom he worked played in the disclosure of information regarding Ms. Wilson's CIA employment and about the motivations for their actions."

Keep dancin', Q.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...