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Originally posted by DJ RANN It's interesting EricJ that you say Techno, because that's (prepare for semi-ignorant sweeping generalisation) what most Americans label house/Trance/Prog/etc.

Yeah, that's just what we called it back then. I don't know if that was right or not, but I don't remember it being referred to anything other than that until 94-95. In fact, back then we referred to what is now "jungle" as "breakbeat" or "hardcore". Prodigy, the Experience years, Smart-E's, Moving Shadow, Suburban Bass stuff, that was all "breakbeat" to us over here.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Good post even if it was a wiki rip

No wiki rip, my friend. These were all details that I have vaguely remember over the years ("classic trance" threads here help refresh my memory every few months). Only thing I had to look up was Bruno Sanchioni, as I knew who it was but forgot which project he was with (it's not like many people were really referring to the individuals behind project like that 15 years ago! LOL)

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What Harthouse and Vath were making was known as Techno at the time - not Trance. It's only later when Trance became a genre in it's own right that it was labelled (after the fact).

by 1993 the term has stuck yeah, but you're saying pretty much what I was saying, techno OR house with that vibe fell under the trance umbrella.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Oh, and one more thing - by pure co-incidence (or fate) I got out my original copy (bought in the early 90's) of The Age of Love about two nights ago.

I hate you so much right now.

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Diginut you keep saying that using the term progressive is pretentious and for wankers but I think you taking it out of context. When most people on here (or anywhere for that matter) use the word progressive i.e - progressive house or progressive trance, they don't mean cutting edge/ahead of the masses or whatever you seem to think they mean.

They just mean its progressive in its structure and merely a way of describing the style of track. If someone descibes their track as progressive trance, all they will mean is it is most likely between 128-135bpm. It wont have epic breakdowns and huge buildups. It will instead gently flow over time (progress) without climaxing to the big breakdowns as mentioned before.

Now what exactly is wrong with that..?

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Originally posted by G-Con If someone descibes their track as progressive trance, all they will mean is it is most likely between 128-135bpm. It wont have epic breakdowns and huge buildups. It will instead gently flow over time (progress) without climaxing to the big breakdowns as mentioned before.

Yup, this is all 'progressive' means. Kinda similar to the meaning of the word 'minimalist' when used about other types of music...

DJMaytag - If that's all from memory then I take it back and am impressed! I find it difficult to remember because I was having the time of my life! It makes both you and EricJ quite a rare species - (North Americans that were in to dance music at that period and know their EDM history).

EricJ - That's really funny how the oldschool genres were known over there back then. Prodigy, the Experience years, Smart-E's, Moving Shadow, Suburban Bass stuff were known as Rave/Hardcore and or Oldskool over here in the UK, then those labels moved in to Jungle to Drum n Bass.

Progressive apologists always seem to try to assert that Progressive Dance music is named for the fact that the music "progresses," but this is simply retro-defining the genre. In the mid to late ninties, there was a centralizing movement amongst producers which sought to include the most popular and danceable components from House, Trance and Techno. Tracks that acheived this were deemed to be avant-garde and original; in a word, they were called Progressive. Understandibly, the result often led to sounds that were difficult to place in any one of the genres, because it tended to lack funk, hypnoticness or mechanicality, so it was all lumped into the "progressive" category, which is perfunctorily labelled as a house genre.

Ironically, this name given to music for being edgy and new is now applied to a very cliche and hackneyed sound.

And to answer the question, Trance becomes House when it stops being Progressive.

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Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Progressive apologists always seem to try to assert that Progressive Dance music is named for the fact that the music "progresses," but this is simply retro-defining the genre. In the mid to late ninties, there was a centralizing movement amongst producers which sought to include the most popular and danceable components from House, Trance and Techno. Tracks that acheived this were deemed to be avant-garde and original; in a word, they were called Progressive. Understandibly, the result often led to sounds that were difficult to place in any one of the genres, because it tended to lack funk, hypnoticness or mechanicality, so it was all lumped into the "progressive" category, which is perfunctorily labelled as a house genre. Ironically, this name given to music for being edgy and new is now applied to a very cliche and hackneyed sound. And to answer the question, Trance becomes House when it stops being Progressive.

i couldn't give a shit where the word progressive came from to be used. I'm saying that nowadays, people use that word to give an indication of the style of trance/house track they are talking about. Not to imply it is cutting edge

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When i was 10 / 11 i used to listen to acid house, not sure what it was called that i listened to for a bit. Remeber radio show: colin favour - the sonic underground. And i remember The hypnotist - the house is mine on rising high, and trashman - cosmostrash.

But i remember hardcore cos it was my fav. What is now called old skool but was called hardcore then. Then the split came and it everntually was called breakbeat hardcore or jungle. Then happy hardcore came and jungle was called drum and bass. I kind of missed out the start of trance although I did like perfecto fluoro and the whole goa explosion in about 93/94 before hooj tunes and the epic house scene e.g. robert miles - children (cheesy example) came along and it sounded more like todays trance.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN DJMaytag - If that's all from memory then I take it back and am impressed! I find it difficult to remember because I was having the time of my life! It makes both you and EricJ quite a rare species - (North Americans that were in to dance music at that period and know their EDM history).

I was lucky to have moved to Madison, Wisconsin in 1989, as that was ground zero for the beginning of the midwest rave scene the following year. a DJ from Madison named Nick Nice was in college in Paris in the late 80's and brought back all sorts of techno & house records when he returned, and partnerd up with another young DJ (Mike Carlson, who I worked for at his record store for 2.5 years) to start throwing the very first rave parties and do techno & house nights at the local clubs.

It also helped that the local teen club when I was in high school had a DJ that played all sorts of Chicago house from the late 80's and a few things in the "hip-house" realm of the early 90's (Fast Eddie, Julian "Jumpin" Perez, Mr. Lee, etc). Ironically, that DJ was Mike Carlson (didn't know that until after I had worked for him for over a year!). A good friend used to go down to Chicago on the weekends to visit his mom, and would tape stuff off B96 (or whatever station it was) when Bad Boy Bill was playing live, dropping hip-house and early Detroit techno (to which I absolutely fell in love with what I MUCH later learned was a group called Inner City).

I was just an absolute freak for anything about the music back then, and I read tons of rave magazines and LOVED those Volume/Trance Europe Express compilations that had those 192 page booklets! CD's like that were an invaluable source of information, and getting connected with people on music production mailing lists as far back as 1995 helped garner some extra info (like the history behind the machines such as the 808, 909, 303 that made dance music possible).

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EricJ - That's really funny how the oldschool genres were known over there back then. Prodigy, the Experience years, Smart-E's, Moving Shadow, Suburban Bass stuff were known as Rave/Hardcore and or Oldskool over here in the UK, then those labels moved in to Jungle to Drum n Bass.

It was mostly called breakbeats, but in 1993 Moonshine did start to produce that series of "mix CD's" (they were digitally edited, not real mixes) called "Speed Limit 140 + BPM" that prominently noted them as being "The Sound of London Hardcore". I bought the first 4 when they came out, but it started sounding too much like jungle by the 4th (not my style).

I'm glad you have an open mind to the possibility that American's could have known about dance music long before 1998. I almost died laughing over a thread on TA where someone from the UK flat out denied it was even possible for Americans to have heard of techno & trance in the early 90's!

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Originally posted by G-Con i couldn't give a shit where the word progressive came from to be used. I'm saying that nowadays, people use that word to give an indication of the style of trance/house track they are talking about. Not to imply it is cutting edge

This is almost exactly what I said. I said Progressive != progression of a track. Progressive = a sound that has been long defined based on the use of elements from outside a particular genre to create a more "centralized" style.

As to how people use it nowadays, you should listen to people talk about Prog in MD if you don't think they use it to imply some kind of originality. Just about any style of Prog will have its followers who will swear on their favorite DJ that they only listen to music that is at the vanguard. There is as much snobbery in Prog as there ever was.

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