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Originally posted by Krypton One huge assumption you might of forgot about was, "Life arose from non-living matter." If this is the case, why hasn't it happened again and again over all these billions of years, and why hasn't it ever been demonstrated in a laboratory? Putting together useless amino acids in a test tube does not constitute a proof of spontaneous life generation.

Again, let's make sure you understand the difference between abiogenesis and biological evolution. You do realize that these concepts are quite different, correct?

It's a very common misconception to combine the two together for creationists to label as "evolution."

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its interesting you keep harping on about "proof". pretty laughable coming from a theist mate. i'll post this again for your reading pleasure pointing at supposed "holes" in evolution is not giving credence to any alternative theory. evolution stands up to much more rigorous scientific inquiry than ANYTHING creationists have had to offer. so until you can provide a more compelling and plausible position, supported by as much evidence as evolution is, you've got absolutely nothing to be complaining about. the entire world is still waiting.

The alternative is a universe designed, created, and set into motion by a Creator being. The universe is fine-tuned, shown by the fact that if the cosmological constant was changed by just a small amount, carbon would never have formed, and niether carbon-based life. Now, life arising from anything other than carbon has never been demonstrated, because we've never found life anywhere else. So, so far, we can say that life must be carbon-based. This is better explained in the idea of Anthropic Princple.

We know the universe has a beginning, including a start point for time and the expansion of space. New theoretical theories (M theory, sting theory) of physics are discovering alternate realities outside of own space and time. It's mathematically proven.

We know the universe is decaying in entropy, devolving on a cosmological scale.

We know the universe is packed full of information on seemingly infinite scale. Where does this information come from? Why is there a limit to the speed information travels? Why can't we access the information of other "branes" or from places outside the visible universe? What set these limits, placed the variables in the right place, for even matter to form. Information does not spontaneously put itself together?

Evolution is actually the alternative to the common-held belief through countless generations of human that this reality is derived from an intelligent source. Only in the last 200 years has darwinism become the alternative to the traditional theory of origins, of which several of the greatest scientific minds since Newton believed in anthropic principle and some of its implications. So pointing out all the inherent flaws in evolution does point credance to the traditional alternative to evolution. I'm not saying, religion explains it all. But as I've researched evidence presented, it points me to some mysterious intelligence outside of our container of space/time and is responsible for the existance of the fundamental parameters or laws of physics.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Again, let's make sure you understand the difference between abiogenesis and biological evolution. You do realize that these concepts are quite different, correct? It's a very common misconception to combine the two together for creationists to label as "evolution."

So, how does evolutionary theory suppose how life arose from non-living matter (which has never been documented in a lab)?

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Originally posted by Krypton So, how does evolutionary theory suppose how life arose from non-living matter (which has never been documented in a lab)?

It doesn't - exactly my point. The concept of abiogenesis (life from non-life) is separate and distinct from evolution (change of allele frequencies in a population over time). Evolution research does not touch abiognesis research, nor should it.

Granted, there might be some similar ideas with abiogenesis (i.e. possible mutation events in amino acids of sorts), but the research albeit very interesting in abiogenesis is both distinctly separate and very incomplete (to the nth degree of incompleteness compared to evolutionary research).

So the comparison of life creation you are creating by lumping these two concepts together and calling them "evolution" versus a theistic involvement of some sort is incorrect on those grounds.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by Krypton The alternative is a universe designed, created, and set into motion by a Creator being.

i know what the alternative is, the point im making is you have exactly ZERO evidence to support it.

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Originally posted by Krypton The universe is fine-tuned, shown by the fact that if the cosmological constant was changed by just a small amount, carbon would never have formed, and niether carbon-based life. Now, life arising from anything other than carbon has never been demonstrated, because we've never found life anywhere else. So, so far, we can say that life must be carbon-based. This is better explained in the idea of Anthropic Princple.

this is a typical fallacy you find repeated by the theist. it takes the form "life exists, therefore god does". there are innumerable, precise conditions that must have arisen to grant life on planet earth. this does not equal design. who knows how many universes exist/have existed where the parameters were not conducive to life? its the same argument regarding the very particular positioning of earth around the sun, yet theists seem to ignore the billions of galaxies, billions of stars, and presumably, billions of planets.

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We know the universe is packed full of information on seemingly infinite scale. Where does this information come from? Why is there a limit to the speed information travels? Why can't we access the information of other "branes" or from places outside the visible universe? What set these limits, placed the variables in the right place, for even matter to form. Information does not spontaneously put itself together?

so who created god then? surely a being with as much information as god must therefore have been put together by something else. and who but that being together etc?

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Evolution is actually the alternative to the common-held belief through countless generations of human that this reality is derived from an intelligent source. Only in the last 200 years has darwinism become the alternative to the traditional theory of origins, of which several of the greatest scientific minds since Newton believed in anthropic principle and some of its implications.

irrelevant. that's like saying computer don't exist coz they're a recently recent "discovery".

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So pointing out all the inherent flaws in evolution does point credance to the traditional alternative to evolution. I'm not saying, religion explains it all. But as I've researched evidence presented, it points me to some mysterious intelligence outside of our container of space/time and is responsible for the existance of the fundamental parameters or laws of physics.

no, no it doesn't. all it does is make a joke of intellectual debate, by arguing "there appears to be a hole in the theory here, let's place god in that hole". which is un-scientific nonsense. there is no "hole" in creationism simply because there is no proper theory to begin with.

and of course religion doesn't "explain it all". it explains NOTHING. unless you wish to argue that genesis is somehow realistic, there is nothing in any religious text to give us any kind of blueprint for how things were created, and certainly doesn't give us ANY reason to doubt the volumes of scientific evidence that has categorically supported evolutionary theory.

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Originally posted by Krypton So, how does evolutionary theory suppose how life arose from non-living matter (which has never been documented in a lab)?

Remember we're living in a very chaotic planet with a lot of elements;

though I believe that life will arise from any elements, and not in limited circumstances, but in abundance; the universe is large, and we're a speck of dust, but one day our progeny's collective will perhaps grasp a part of the whole, just like we have always done through exploration and imagination.

The movement of air and water through galactic satellites, and gravity, and who knows what; clay and mud and sodium and who knows what; even glaciers in the hemispheres, or non-oxygenated environments beneath the sea; life doesn't seem to be so much about constants, it seems inevitable.

Now it's just a matter of finding out how and why and where and what. We've got this pull of religious bullshittery yanking at us, from the last several thousand years, and we need to look beyond it, and beyond our current scientific ethos, to discover the new.

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Originally posted by Krypton So, how does evolutionary theory suppose how life arose from non-living matter (which has never been documented in a lab)?

When defeated divert attention from the particular topic. If you had read what Opus has posted numerous times, you would've been able to answer your own question. Too bad he's wasting his time on someone who has convinced himself that his point of view is right and there is nothing else to be studied or worth considering. Shame, because Opus is really good at constructing and documenting his arguments; you could've learned something from what he posted.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX When defeated divert attention from the particular topic. If you had read what Opus has posted numerous times, you would've been able to answer your own question.

I think (at least I hope) that the point I was making on this particular subtopic has been made, and I think Krypton understood it once it was pointed out (at least I hope). Again this is a very common misconception of what evolution encompasses, not just by creationists but by pretty much the majority of folks out there.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

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Originally posted by Krypton So, how does evolutionary theory suppose how life arose from non-living matter (which has never been documented in a lab)?

how did god make the world if it has never been documented in a lab????

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Now god is not a "term" krypton would accept. He wants something along the lines of intelligent being. This intelligent being may be mortal too.. he just was sooo fucking smart.. he created the universe out crazy mathematical formulas and experimented and and poof...BIG BANG.

Seriously, why do people need some sense of meaning in their pathetic lives??

U are a living organism! Just fucking live and die. Thats it. U want some sort of afterlife to show that ur insignificant life would be rewarded in a place where there is a load of blow where u can snort all u want and wont die of overdose???

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Originally posted by trewqy U want some sort of afterlife to show that ur insignificant life would be rewarded in a place where there is a load of blow where u can snort all u want and wont die of overdose, Acid really makes you fly, and you can bang britney spears, paris hilton and kate moss without getting VD???

*fixed*

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?