Hahahaha, oh Magnetonium. You're such a Virgin!

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Originally posted by Magnetonium ARMY .... COMMAND .... WORLD STAGE ... pffft, whats wrong with you, people? What about other bigger oil and natural resource corporations like Shell and Exxon Mobil ... dont they have ARMIES, COMMAND, WORLD STAGE, CONTROL, etc BIGGER than that of Russian Gazprom? Dont they have more illegal actions going on in volative places like Middle East? How about being anti-corporate with them, too? How about it, huh? How about dropping your double standard bullshit and coming together with your senses and respecting and treating equal all world's economies and companies who are trying to do what YOUR country's oil and gas companies are trying to do! Just because Gazprom has more gas because nature's luck, there's no need to get jealous and treat ugly because some companies like Shell, Exxon use political and military applications to SEIZE OTHER COUNTRIES' oil and gas ... but thats OK, isnt it? Double standards my ass!

None of what I said negates the fact that Western companies are doing dubious things in the persuit of oil, power, and money. The rise in significant non-state militray orgainzations is going to have devestating consequences on world security.

I'm mostly concerned that Cheney will continue his growing spat with Putin through a Haliburton/Blackwater vs. Gazprom match up. They will probably choose a weak country to battle it out in and devistate the local population.

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Originally posted by George Smiley You really don't understand do you? The crime has to be political. Murder is not a political crime it is MURDER

Not political my ass!

This was one of the most blatant political crimes in ages.

Why do you think they chose the posion that was used?

Didn't you question why one of the best secret services in the world used a poison that could be detected AND traced the lenght of it's travels?

The killing was carried out as a draconian act of intimidation. The posion was chosen so that every place that it passed through was identified. Now the notion of "safty" has been shaken as the KGB has shown all of the different places it could have struck, including the British Embacy.

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Originally posted by George Smiley 1. Russian law (represented by the Constitution and the European Convention on Extradition) allows for extradition but not for political crimes - fact

Sigh ... we're going back to the same loop again:

Russian Constitution:

Article 61

1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from the Russian Federation or extradited to another state.

Article 63

2. In the Russian Federation persons who are persecuted for their political convictions or for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation may not be extradited to other states. The extradition of persons accused of a crime, as well as the surrender of convicts to serve sentence in other states, shall be carried out on the basis of federal law or an international treaty of the Russian Federation.

^^^^^
NOT ENOUGH READING FOR YOU? Therefore, Lugovoi cannot be extradited, you have not shown me the law and the lines that say that Russia MUST extradite Lugovoi. You're just making it up that something requires that Russia breaks it own laws and extradite its citizens. Russian federal law states that crimes carried out by its citizens CLEARLY must be prosecuted in Russia.

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2. Lugovoi is not wanted for a political crime - fact

Its a politically drive murder, which is political, and now that I read the Russian Constitution again, its pretty obvious that it stipulates that its citizens should be tried IN Russia.

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4. There are no Russian legal barriers for the extradition of Lugovoi - fact

Russian Constitution is not a legal barrier? LOL

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5. The UK's Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge Lugovoi with murder - fact

No it doesnt. It hasnt presented the evidence other than speculation that a few of the places Lugovoi visited had polonium traces there. But polonium was also found in Berezovsky office, and in British Embassy in Moscow, and so on ... politically motivated case.

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6. The EU and UN say Russian law cannot be trusted (which is why the UK will not allow Lugovoi to be tried under Russian law because they are likely to let him go free) - fact

No, Lugovoi will more likely be freed in Russia because British have weak evidence in this case and so they want to charge and try him in UK where they know they can easily convict him.

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7. The UK has similar extradition laws to Russia, it can extradite people but not for political crimes or where the person may face torture or the death penalty - fact

Once again, what law, show me the lines, tell me where exactly Russia MUST extradite its citizens that are first of all presented with weak evidence for the case of extradition?

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8. Berezovsky has been granted political asylum which means the UK believe that he will be tried for political crimes in Russia - fact

And Russian law for Lugovoi is meaningless you think? Did Russia expel British diplomats when British followed their own laws? No. Russia acted quite civilized, and it was UK who started all this shit, but creating a political provocation and havoc.

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9. It is against UK law, European law to extradite someone of Berezovsky's status (it would even be illegal under Russian law!) - fact

Yes, Berezovsky is a great example of how a corrupt, greedy and criminal businessman is allowed to get away from justice, giving examples to other criminals in Russia to escape to UK and continue their lifestyles ... very good for Russian fledging democracy.

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The above 9 points are all facts. They are not up for discussion. Please read through them and understand them before you comment further on this situation because it has become clear that you do not have enough knowledge of the subjects to engage in a debate about them - this is something that has become apparent in other threads as well - you seem to ignore facts at will when it comes to defending Russia, which is something you need to get out of the habit of doing otherwise anything you say in future will just be irrelevant...

No, not facts ... the politicizing of this case by British government and officials, the lack of respect for the Russian Constitution, the double standards, the contradicting evidence i.e. polonium trails found in where Berezovsky visited and his offices, polonium found in British Embassy at Moscow ... all this is evidence of a politically motivated murder. And the way this case was treated and handled by the British government is an illustration of what really its about. If UK wants to use its weak and inexistent evidence to extradite Lugovoi it should at least be more co-operative with Russia and not create a political scandal by accusing Russian government, expelling Russian diplomats and such because thats a definition of a politically-motivated and childish way to solve this issue.

The only evidence UK has against Lugovoi is that the polonium trail followed him to some of the public places he's been WITH HIS FAMILY (that he intentionally endagered, eh?), while also there's contradicting trails found in Berezovsky's office and such, and so on ... anyhow, you wont get your extradition with the way British government handled this case, where it had no jurisdition because it should have only been a small businessman-to-businessman case. But it became a politically-motivated murder case, as much as you'd like to deny it.

EDIT: Please show me the FACTUAL undisputable evidence that says YES, LUGOVOI DID IT, as you claim. Because not only did the restaurant attendant said he didnt see any poison added. Somehow the British media and their government is quiet about it, other than the trail of polonium that has been found in more places than just those that Lugovoi visited (ex. Berezovsky's office).

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Jul-18-2007 at 00:23

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Originally posted by atbell Not political my ass! This was one of the most blatant political crimes in ages. Why do you think they chose the posion that was used? Didn't you question why one of the best secret services in the world used a poison that could be detected AND traced the lenght of it's travels? The killing was carried out as a draconian act of intimidation. The posion was chosen so that every place that it passed through was identified. Now the notion of "safty" has been shaken as the KGB has shown all of the different places it could have struck, including the British Embacy.

For fucks sake what is wrong with you people?!

Is it so fucking difficult, in this day and age, to spend two seconds typing "political crime definition" in Google then you all wouldn't look like such cretins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_crime

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Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] Sigh ... we're going back to the same loop again: Russian Constitution: Article 61 1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from the Russian Federation or extradited to another state. Article 63 2. In the Russian Federation persons who are persecuted for their political convictions or for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation may not be extradited to other states. The extradition of persons accused of a crime, as well as the surrender of convicts to serve sentence in other states, shall be carried out on the basis of federal law or an international treaty of the Russian Federation. ^^^^^ NOT ENOUGH READING FOR YOU? Therefore, Lugovoi cannot be extradited, you have not shown me the law and the lines that say that Russia MUST extradite Lugovoi. You're just making it up that something requires that Russia breaks it own laws and extradite its citizens. Russian federal law states that crimes carried out by its citizens CLEARLY must be prosecuted in Russia.

http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007...lugovoi_ext.htm

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Its a politically drive murder, which is political, and now that I read the Russian Constitution again, its pretty obvious that it stipulates that its citizens should be tried IN Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_crime

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Russian Constitution is not a legal barrier? LOL

See link above

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No it doesnt. It hasnt presented the evidence other than speculation that a few of the places Lugovoi visited had polonium traces there. But polonium was also found in Berezovsky office, and in British Embassy in Moscow, and so on ... politically motivated case.

The Crown Prosecution Service can only prosecute somebody if they have enough evidence to provide to a court. It does not mean a jury will agree with the evidence. This is the UK, not some backward corrupt state like Russia, we have democratic ways of applying our laws. The CPS has evidence, there is no way in the world you can say "it doesn't" unless you are a complete retard

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No, Lugovoi will more likely be freed in Russia because British have weak evidence in this case and so they want to charge and try him in UK where they know they can easily convict him.

Your opinion on the fact does not change the fact

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Once again, what law, show me the lines, tell me where exactly Russia MUST extradite its citizens that are first of all presented with weak evidence for the case of extradition?

See link above

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And Russian law for Lugovoi is meaningless you think? Did Russia expel British diplomats when British followed their own laws? No. Russia acted quite civilized, and it was UK who started all this shit, but creating a political provocation and havoc.

A British citizen was murdered.

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Yes, Berezovsky is a great example of how a corrupt, greedy and criminal businessman is allowed to get away from justice, giving examples to other criminals in Russia to escape to UK and continue their lifestyles ... very good for Russian fledging democracy.

Your opinion on the fact does not change the fact

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EDIT: Please show me the FACTUAL undisputable evidence that says YES, LUGOVOI DID IT

Like I said, the UK is not some backwards corrupt state like Russia. There will be no "undisputable" evidence. In the UK, a jury decides the outcome of a trial based on the evidence available, not the government (as would be the case in Russia). And for someone to be taken to court, there must be enough evidence to call for a trial

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Originally posted by George Smiley http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007...lugovoi_ext.htm

Do you actually READ the links that you post? That article specifically states as well that Russian Constitution does not allow extradition of its citizens. I quoted you the Russian Constitution for Christ's sake, and you're giving me links to some opinions of a journalist? LOL

Here's a more appropriate documentation that solidifies MY point about laws on extraditions from Russia:

http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/C...L=1&CM=5&CL=ENG

Also, where's the evidence that UK claims that it has that shows that Lugovoi did it (other than the ALLEGED polonium trail that also links to Berezovsky, etc.). You got no evidence other than speculations, so stop calling everything a fact because its not.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You really don't understand do you? The crime has to be political. Murder is not a political crime it is MURDER

Politically motivated murder. How many times do I have to say that? POLITICALLY MOTIVATED .... political motivations in this case include blaming an innocent Russian citizen of the crime he probably didnt commit because there's no solid evidence that has been brought up, and what the British agencies/government did as a retaliation, threats and such, further shows this. Therefore Lugovoi has all protection that he will ever need under the Russian Constitution, plus UK refuses to try Lugovoi in court in Russia ... because its got weak / non-existent evidence.

That polonium was very expensive ... You really think Lugovoi would spend millions of dollars on such blatantly obvious dangerous act instead of hiring a hitman (which can be less likely traced to him or the Russian government). Seriously, there are only governmments and military who have that type of polonium, and we all know who is ACTUALLY being blamed here ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Politically motivated murder. How many times do I have to say that? POLITICALLY MOTIVATED .... political motivations in this case include blaming an innocent Russian citizen of the crime he probably didnt commit because there's no solid evidence that has been brought up, and what the British agencies/government did as a retaliation, threats and such, further shows this. Therefore Lugovoi has all protection that he will ever need under the Russian Constitution, plus UK refuses to try Lugovoi in court in Russia ... because its got weak / non-existent evidence. That polonium was very expensive ... You really think Lugovoi would spend millions of dollars on such blatantly obvious dangerous act instead of hiring a hitman (which can be less likely traced to him or the Russian government). Seriously, there are only governmments and military who have that type of polonium, and we all know who is ACTUALLY being blamed here ...

Do you know what a "political crime" is?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you know what a "political crime" is?

I am talking about politically motivated murder. And try to reply to other points, please ... like reading the link I provided from a government body, and providing the proof that will enable extradition of Lugovoi. You see, I am not opposed to extradition of Lugovoi. But when the evidence is ballony and weak, when its only speculation about the polonium trails that lead to other suspects who are ignored, well ... thats a weak extradition case. Plus British government has already deliberately ruined relations with Russia by prematurely creating a political war by expelling Russian diplomats and acting like a child. Provide the proof, and we'll find a legal way to give Lugovoi to UK. Its that easy. But too late now, British are never going to apologize for the political fuck-up they did at the government level (when it wasnt their business to turn this into a political incident, and Russian government not to blame).

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Do you actually READ the links that you post? That article specifically states as well that Russian Constitution does not allow extradition of its citizens. I quoted you the Russian Constitution for Christ's sake, and you're giving me links to some opinions of a journalist? LOL Here's a more appropriate documentation that solidifies MY point about laws on extraditions from Russia: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/C...L=1&CM=5&CL=ENG Also, where's the evidence that UK claims that it has that shows that Lugovoi did it (other than the ALLEGED polonium trail that also links to Berezovsky, etc.). You got no evidence other than speculations, so stop calling everything a fact because its not.

OK for arguments sake I shall agree the Constitution agrees with you but the Council of Europe's clauses are optional which means Russia does not have to abide by them (and the article I quoted draws attention to the fact that the Russian legal system is corrupt and suspect as it means the government decides when to extradite someone or not, whereas in the UK, the government has no control over who is extradited as we are a democracy where the government's power is kept in check)