quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo if that was his only reason (it isn't), how do even begin to rationalize (which you have made clear in your statements) it as an American.

Please, inform me on the main reason OBL has given for 911...

He makes clear, as does the Iranian revolution that they are fighting mainly...

1. Western interference in the muslim lands.
2. Western, mainly US, support for Israel.

-If you didn't know, millions of Palestinians were forced out of their land to become refugees back in 1948, which is why they hate Israel, or most notably Zionism. It is not because they hate Jews. Plenty of Jews live in Egypt, Moroco, Iran, and India in harmony with muslims.

Why do you believe it is not these 2 reason for why they fight? Why do you think they fight? My main point is to inform you that we are not 100% right in our ways of pursuing american interests. We're forsaking our image as the land of opportunity. We are now seen as the land of imperialism by much of the world. This is not because the world is a bunch of piss offs. Its because we are doing stupid shit and the world is trying to snap us out of it. So why won't snap out of it!? If this war in Iraq was justified, then world opinion would have been on our side. Few would have protested. Yet millions, hundreds of millions of people came out against the war. Not even that, but entire nations came out in opposition, most notably, france, russia, and china. Of this war was that noble, the entire world would have agreed just as they did for the first gulf war when saddam had violated the sovereignty to Kuwait.

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Originally posted by Krypton Then I did a little research. There I discovered the truth. The internet really can set you free.

there's your f**kin problem right there.

you ignore the fact that Kyoto has NEVER had popular support in this country.

you ignore the fact that Kyoto has not changed with respect to what Congress and many other countries wants it to do and thats include developing countries to the same standard, again, among many other things.

as a Federalist or a Washingtonian originalist whatever you, philisophically, should be diametrically opposed to anything the Kyoto Protocol would require us to do, but you hate Bush and his "corporate masters" and will validate anything terrorists do as long as it make the West look bad...bravo. Washington would be proud

Last edited by Q5echo on Sep-24-2007 at 02:51

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Up until this year you didn't realize that oil played a part in America going into Iraq? How ignorant can you be? And you didn't know about NAFTA? Which started during the Clinton administration, long before Bush got into office? Sounds like you live a sheltered life, and mainly visit conspiracy theory websites on the net. Go out there and read books. I know there are plenty of bookstores in Tampa, but i'll make it easy on you. Get on Dale Mabry and head into Borders or Barnes & Noble. There's 2 Borders off of Dale Mabry - one by the stadium, and one up around Carrolwood. Go in there, browse the history and current events sections, sit down, order a coffee, and read properly. I'm no neocon myself. In the upcoming election I'll either be supporting hillary or Rudi. Havent made up my mind yet, but I have the good mind to tell you that you're really dumb for believing anything Osama Bin Laden says.

So you admit support for oil interests, you support the abolition of our national borders, and you are a neoconservative because you believe interventionism.

Conspiracy websites ay? I've already asked you to pick out any piece of my points that I've made, and challenged you to a debate with sources. You havn't taken me up, so you can shove those directions right up your ass buddy

You and q5echo exemplify the shining example of a neocon...

You are a neo-jacobin...

quote:

Jacobinism, Bolshevism The "traditional" conservative Claes G. Ryn has argued that neoconservatives are "a variety of neo-Jacobins." Ryn maintains that true conservatives deny the existence of a universal political and economic philosophy and model that is suitable for all societies and cultures, and believe that a society's institutions should be adjusted to suit its culture, while Neo-Jacobins are attached in the end to ahistorical, supranational principles that they believe should supplant the traditions of particular societies. The new Jacobins see themselves as on the side of right and fighting evil and are not prone to respecting or looking for common ground with countries that do not share their democratic preferences. (Ryn 2003: 387) Further examining the relationship between Neoconservatism and moral rhetoric, Ryn argues that Neo-Jacobinism regards America as founded on universal principles and assigns to the United States the role of supervising the remaking of the world. Its adherents have the intense dogmatic commitment of true believers and are highly prone to moralistic rhetoric. They demand, among other things, "moral clarity" in dealing with regimes that stand in the way of America's universal purpose. They see themselves as champions of "virtue." (p. 384). Thus, according to Ryn, neoconservatism is analogous to Bolshevism: in the same way that the Bolsheviks wanted to destroy established ways of life throughout the world to replace them with communism, the neoconservatives want to do the same, only imposing free-market capitalism and American-style liberal democracy instead of socialism. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, had the following to say in a December, 2005 interview with the German weekly Der Spiegel: "They are not new conservatives. They're Jacobins. Their predecessor is French Revolution leader Maximilien Robespierre."[30] Conflict with Libertarian conservatives There is also conflict between neoconservatives and libertarian conservatives. Libertarian conservatives are ideologically opposed to the expansiveness of federal government programs and regard neoconservative foreign policy ambitions with outspoken distrust. They view the neoconservative promotion of preemptive war as morally unjust, dangerous to the preservation of a free society, and against the principles of the Constitution. Rep Ron Paul, a Republican libertarian who holds a Texas district, and is a 2008 Presidential candidate, has spoken out against the Bush Administration's foreign policy, specifically against the influence of "neocons.

OBL isn't talking out of his ass. Know thy enemy. Know what he believes, then you can formulate a strategy against him. But you equate examining his worldview, and making rational connections as believing in his ideology. So assuming I believe in his radical sunni islam beliefs, you use terrorist lover in almost every response. Learn how to debate properly. You will lose every time because you have no idea how the other guy (your oppostion) ticks. Sorry I've taken that upon myself to do so ...

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Why do you believe it is not these 2 reason for why they fight?

when did i say i didn't? i just find it irrational. why would ANY sane person describe the "reasons they fight" as anything but irrational?

i'm gonna tell you one more time. you should heed your own advice and let the soveriegn Muslim governments that Bin Laden says he speaks for, speak for themselves and stop validating a religious freak.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton -If you didn't know, millions of Palestinians were forced out of their land to become refugees back in 1948, which is why they hate Israel, or most notably Zionism. It is not because they hate Jews. Plenty of Jews live in Egypt, Moroco, Iran, and India in harmony with muslims.

Where do you come up with this crap? In India? The Jewish population in India is tiny. And what does India even have to do with the Middle East? It's not in the Middle East, it's not an Arabic country, there are no Palestinians there, and the country is mainly made up of Hindus not Moslims.
The number of Jews that currently lives in Egypt, Israel's neighbor, is a whopping 100 people or so. There's less then 10,000 Jews currently in Morocoo, and sadly there's still 25,000 Jews in Iran.

Now if you didn't know, there was a war in 1948 between Israel and its neighbors. This is b/c the British agreed to split up the land known as Palestine into two - half for the Jews, half for the Arabs. Most Arab countries, which just recently at that point in time received their own freedom of rule, couldn't handle having a Jewish state. Most Arabs living in Palestine couldn't handle it either, so a war broke out between Israel and its neighbors. In the end, Israel won, and the Arabs that didnt object to Israeli rule were ALLOWED to stay in the new state of Israel. The rest of the Arabs fled to neighboring countries. Their stubborness is the main reason why many of them are still living in refugee camps today.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo there's your f**kin problem right there. you ignore the fact that Kyoto has NEVER had popular support in this country. you ignore the fact that Kyoto has not changed with respect to what Congress and many other countries wants it to do and thats include developing countries to the same standard, again, among many other things. as a Federalist or a Washingtonian originalist whatever you, philisophically, should be diametrically opposed to anything the Kyoto Protocol would require us to do, but you hate Bush and his "corporate masters" and will validate anything terrorists do as long as it make the West look bad...bravo. be proud

I love how you state my supposed views of mine, when I really don't hold those views at all. First, I'm called a terrorist lover, which I'm not. Now, that I hate america, and want the west to look bad. Are you just making this shit up? Because no where am I making any such claims. So stop the BS...

The majority of people in this country DOES want to do something about climate change. I guess you don't. You want corporate protection from having to obligatorily reduce pollution right? The implementation of kyoto was being negotiated. Never did I say it was being implemented or anything. if they could work out a plan where Congress could vote yes on, then great. But Bush never allowed that process to play out completely. He withdrew.

Companies like Halliburton, Blackwater USA, and KBR stand to make billions of dollars from the Iraq War. Yes, Bush is a panderer to special interests. Why are you angry at me for calling out whats plagueing Washington these days? Are you actually in support of Congress and Bush's abismal leadership of this country. The division? The distrust? Are you fucking insane? Are you living a dream world. Sorry friends, but something is very very VERY wrong with washington. You people can keep denying this, but it will bite you in the ass one day.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Conspiracy websites ay? I've already asked you to pick out any piece of my points that I've made, and challenged you to a debate with sources. You havn't taken me up, so you can shove those directions right up your ass buddy

Too lazy to go to a bookstore and read real books?
You know whats great about books with research? At the end of those books they cite sources!!!

I can link you to a million different websites, but I'd just be spamming these boards. Just get out of the house for a change. I've already been out and about several times today while partaking in this amusing discussion where I've discredited what you had to say.

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Where do you come up with this crap? In India? The Jewish population in India is tiny. And what does India even have to do with the Middle East? It's not in the Middle East, it's not an Arabic country, there are no Palestinians there, and the country is mainly made up of Hindus not Moslims. The number of Jews that currently lives in Egypt, Israel's neighbor, is a whopping 100 people or so. There's less then 10,000 Jews currently in Morocoo, and sadly there's still 25,000 Jews in Iran. Now if you didn't know, there was a war in 1948 between Israel and its neighbors. This is b/c the British agreed to split up the land known as Palestine into two - half for the Jews, half for the Arabs. Most Arab countries, which just recently at that point in time received their own freedom of rule, couldn't handle having a Jewish state. Most Arabs living in Palestine couldn't handle it either, so a war broke out between Israel and its neighbors. In the end, Israel won, and the Arabs that didnt object to Israeli rule were ALLOWED to stay in the new state of Israel. The rest of the Arabs fled to neighboring countries. Their stubborness is the main reason why many of them are still living in refugee camps today.

India is populated by sizable populations of Hindus, Jews and Muslims. Don't take me for saying they are each proportional. You keep going off on these tangents taking my comments out of context once again

But I love how simple you make history sound. Only if it were so. The Arabs rejected an Israel, because the country would have given the Jews a majority, marginalizing the Arab representation in the government. Not only was that a main grievance, but millions of Palestinians would have to be evicted for this to happen. The creation of Israel is the reason that millions of refugees reside in the neighboring countrys. NOT because they are stubborn. And what a vague statement to make. Be specific.

This is not about Jews or whatever. I know your just dying to call me anti-semite right? Why not when all else fails huh? It's about the humanitarian crisis of the Palestinians, which the US cares nothing about. That is why you have Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al-Qaida. If the arabs really believed the US and Israel were there to help them, there would not be terrorism.

Again, Arabs were not giving up land they lived in for thousands of years so Israel could have a Jewish majority...That is why they rebel. This is what I'm trying to make clear to you two. This is what OBL and the general muslim dissent is against the US, the west, and Israel. Once you realize that, then we can talk about a comprimise, or solution. But you probably will just want to keep going with the neocon rhetoric.

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Originally posted by CHRles Too lazy to go to a bookstore and read real books? You know whats great about books with research? At the end of those books they cite sources!!! I can link you to a million different websites, but I'd just be spamming these boards. Just get out of the house for a change. I've already been out and about several times today while partaking in this amusing discussion where I've discredited what you had to say.

LOL...

You again refuse to take up my challenge. Pity

I don't give a fuck where you been today

I've been working on a psychology presentation and research paper all day. So I'm stuck on the computer. Staying home on a sunday doing school work? You gotta problem with that

But again, I would expect you to detract completely from the argument to talk about going to the bookstore...Can't argue when you don't even stay on topic...

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Fuckin Neocon pigs on this board


Funny how they bitch about terrorism all day long but yet they support state sponsored terrorism.

How does it feel living under fear your whole life and being hated around the world?

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton So stop the BS...

look at my sig. i can quote your other stuff all night.

you find Islamic terror as rational.

quote:

if they could work out a plan where Congress could vote yes on, then great. But Bush never allowed that process to play out completely. He withdrew.

again, for the last time, Kyoto still does not comply with our demands by our Legislature. it never will. hell even Clintonites now see the error of their ways in supporting Kyoto.

quote:

Why are you angry at me for calling out whats plagueing Washington these days?

because all of your arguments are ignorant of historical fact and are born of internet fashion.

note. Halliburton is no longer in Iraq. haven't been for a while. as a matter of fact as of April of this year they announced they are no longer in Iran.

Halliburton's net revenue last year was $22 billion sans most of Iraq hence, their profits naturally would be a fraction of that minus expenditures. WE'VE SPENT OVER $500 BILLION IN IRAQ SO FAR!!!!!!!!!!! WHO THE FUCK IS MAKING OUT HERE??? IRAQ THATS WHO!!!!!!!!!! all that "Halliburton" bile is internet propaganda that depends on stupid, scared sheep like you to propagate.