quote:

Originally posted by davinox it's not scary at all. like getting in a coma and never waking up.

That doesnt scare you? it scares me.

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that's what animals do.

that was his point

Well, I read someone say the big bang stuff was bullshit. Well my friend, It ain't. It has been proven, and it was exactly in the middle of our universe. Our universe, at this point, is still expanding. But, to the subject, Is there a God. Well, I would say no. Well, not like the bible describes the miracles. Cause they weren't miracles. They were all logical occurences, how stupid it may sound. I'll give you a little example. In the bible, Mozes was said to have split the sea, so they could pass, and closed it after they (Mozes and his party) crossed it. This in fact could have happened, but not because of a miracle from Mozes' side. Archeologists have recently done research on a dead volcano somewhere not to far from where mozes crossed the sea (volcano on Crete if I remember correctly). They pinpointed one of the eruptions of this vulcano exactly to the point where mozes crossed the sea. What happened was as follows. When a vulcano near a sea erupts, tidal waves are created. Just before Mozes crossed the sea, the first tidal wave just crossed the sea. When these tidal waves pass, they leave behind them a vacuum. It takes aproximately an hour for the next tidal wave to gather enough water (this tidal wave is smaller than the first one). So when Mozes arrived at the sea (well, actually it was more or less a swamp with water back then, also proven), the first tidal wave just passed, and they found an open plain. An, hour later, the sea closed due to the coming of the second tidal wave, which did leave water in the comb, for it was smaller, and did not have the power to take all the water in it's wake with it. There you have it, the 'closing' of the 'sea'. This is just a minor example, and I know some of you, who do believe that these things actually occured cause of miracles, might now say; so what, tons of other miracles in the bible that haven't been explained. Wrong again. Archeologists and other specialists in the field of history are starting to unravel al these mysteries puece by piece. The bible tells Jesus died cause of loss of blood or smthn. Wrong, he actually suffocated. I can explain it, but it would take about the whole page (if anyone is interested, pm me, and I would gladly explain how it actually worked). But well, back to the big picture, I don't believe in God, cause the things described just don't feel good to me. For me the Bible is a beautifull book, with lots, and I mean lots of very good messages (too bad in most cases these messages are used to the wrong extent). But I don't believe it's true cause it's not in my nature to believe these kind of things. In my opinion, everything has a rational explanation, but I'm kinda a rational guy. I think everything is bound to the laws of physics. Though I do believe there is a driving force behind these laws of physics. What this is, I do not know

Timetwister

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ok. first off no the big bang isnt proven thats why its a theory. just this week they came out with a new version of it with a parallel dimension that collapses back onto this one. Look it up then talk. And you are wrong. Moses didnt cross the sea where a lot of people think he did. The common held misperception is that he crossed in an area that was in the Egyptian empire. the Bible clearly says they left egypt. There is a land bridge on the other side of the sinai peninsula that at high tide is about neck high. It looks like a road when viewed from above and it crosses into saudi arabia. In saudi arabia there are places people call the caves of moses and stuff so its pretty obvious that is where he crossed. I have no idea where the volcano theory came from but its bad. Who is to say that it wasnt by the grace of God that when the nation of Moses reached the bridge it was low tide? Miracles arent always a flash of lightning and a boom of thunder. Archaeology is a friend of Christianity. Jesus said that if he was silenced even the stones themselves would speak his truth. Archaeology uncovered Sodom and Gamorrha which everyone thought were fairy tale cities of the Bible until they found trade documents and then uncovered it. Ill describe Jesus' death because you are loath to. First to set this up...This all happened during the Roman Empire, the most well documented empire in history. They kept track of EVERYTHING especially the killing of Jesus because that was a biggy. In the Roman empire they used to flog people with a bullwhip that had pieces of bone in the end. 39 was the legal limit because after that it was a death sentence. NO one survived 40. Jesus got 42 I think. Then they crucified him and stabbed him in the left side. Thats why "blood and water" came out because that organ has water in it. And you are correct. All crucifixion victims die of suffocation. No on is arguing with you there. Your shoulders cant support you so you collapse in on your chest and kill yourself. After that they wrapped him in 70 pounds of linen and put him in a stone sarcophagus filled with embalming fluid. *side note* they were going to burn his body but paul paid an exorbitant amount to have his body buried** they then rolled a huge stone that took 10 men to move in front of his cave where he was buried. They then had a wathc of 20 men put over it so his body couldnt be used as a rallying symbol. a couple days later...over 500 eye witness acounts of having seen Jesus. There have been many people who have tried to disprove the ressurection of Christ (many of them lawyers ) and many were converted. If a lawyer cant disprove even the possibility of it happening....

the messages are great. show me a bad message and ill explain it to you. Or better yet ask a priest. If you honestly think the Bible is espousing bad messages talk to someone who knows it by heart and has studied it for many years.

Physics doesnt cancel out christianity at all. Ive never heard anything that disproves a part of it... here is an interesting fact. Did you know the odds of the big bang producing life is .000...(ten to the TWO HUNDRED AND FORTIETH 0's) %? thats a trillion trillion trillion something or other. If it did explode hard enough it would be a congealed mass, if too hard nothing would have clumped, to get this kind of planet you need a type 1 supernove to explode next to a type 2 supernova at the PRECISE right time and right temperature and so on and so on.

heh, what if "Jesus" had a look a like. do you know how easy it is to influence and manipulate people TODAY. imagine back then.

if i went back in time, it'd be me you see nailed to a cross.

quote:

we are an insignificant arrangement of molecules in an INCREDIBLY vast universe.

exactly. god and jesus is man made and when man's extinct, they will be too.

and then the world will be run by evolved insects.

and I will be their leader



MWAHAHHAHA


*ahem*

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people arent any more sophisticated or intelligent today. Hehe I think the "jesus look alike" theory just might be the death blow to the Catholic and Christian churches. I can hear the screams from the Vatican now ayieeeeee

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Originally posted by Orbax and again, read the topic Do you believe in God. so you dont have to "pick a religion" for this one. It doesnt matter if you dont know which religion best depicts God, all you have to do is think that there is one.

yes, but what good is it going to do you if you don't know what this "God" is like.

You obviously think you know what God is like (a Christian God) and that's good. Many people just say, "Oh, I believe in God" when they really don't believe in anything, they are unsure, insecure, or have no true belief.
Not that this is a bad thing, but don't expect for it to be any good.

BTW: Even if for some reason, us humans KNOW who created us, and it matters to our afterlife in who we belive, why in the tens of thousands of religions that have been made in humanity would Christianity be correct?

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The father made fetuses with flesh licking ladies / While you and your mother were asleep in the trailer park / Thunderous sparks from the dark of the stadiums / The music and medicine you needed for comforting / So make all your fat, fleshy fingers fingers to moving / And pluck all your silly strings and / Bend all your notes for me and / Soft silly music is meaningful, magical / The movements were beautiful / All in your ovaries / All of them milking with green fleshy flowers / While powerful pistons were sugary sweet machines, / Smelling of semen all under the garden / Was all you were needing when you still believed in me.

any religion before Christ didnt matter becuase God hadnt said heres the plan guys follow it yet. Christianity is correct because Jesus died and was resurrected and he said so lol. Actually ive been doing research for several years now on stuff like how only the bible talks about how cain killed able and Cain was cursed with something that all people would know him by. What would pass from father to son ? something genetic. Then Cain had a descendent named enoch. Enoch travelled to a place where they wouldnt hurt his people over waters. Heres where it gets interesting. The main city of the aztecs was called Tenochitlan. The aztecs added Ts onto the beginning of many words because of phonetics or something. Itlan meant "city"...City of Enoch is what that is. And how are all the middle/south americans different from the world? None of them have facial hair...do do do do. this would be very noticeable in a period that was mainly beared men. Its stuff like that that no other religion has. Others are riddled with inconsistencies that are unexplainable. In my opinion Christianity is correct because everything else isnt. So besides using reduction, I feel that Christianity has been proved. A HUGE part of it is something called Faith. The best part of the human condition is hope and believing that which is not proved. What is there without hope?

and for sake of ease lets say "god" is a driving force behind the creation of the universe which is latin for "a single spoken word" and mankind. The question is, is there a driving force or was it all just somehow there.

A good parable. Back in ye olden times a wealthy Christian astronomer paid a lot of money to a clockmaker to have him build a solar system out of metal and wood that would rotate and be correct with the timing of the real solar system. After it was created he invited an atheist astronomer over and showed him the model. "Thats incredible!" he exclaimed, "Who made it?". The Christian replied "No one, it just created itself."

why do people look at a watch and say oh yeah some one made that, and then look at the universe with all its perfection and say that just happened?

another interesting one... An Atheist astronaut says to a Christian Doctor "ive been in space many times and Ive never seen God" the Doctor replies "ive operated on hundreds of brains and Ive never seen a thought"

I'm a lost cause..

I do belive there IS a god.. or better yet A super force.. out there... of some sort... (meaning any type of god.. ofther then the christian one we are soo used tooo)

But i dont konw if i can belive in it

I dont belive in the church... and so i dont follow religion...

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Good Girls go to Heaven, Naughty Girls go to London


Originally posted by jennypie
Because you're a filthy WHORE!

Bout the big bang being not very likely, it's estimated that there are as many solar systems in the galaxy as there is sand on earth. So the chance predictions bout the one in a trillion trillion trillion chance could very well go up. Bout physics not being in christianitie's way. Don't think so. People can't walk on water (only stay up and lay still in red sea cause of the salt-level, but definately not walk), peple can't grow out of ribs (and can't find the symbolic meaning of it), snakes don't talk (for as much as I know) and so on and so on. Bout the messages in the bible. I think you got me wrong. I think they're beautifull, only thing is that peple sometimes misintrepet them. Like the Islam (which, when reading the koran, is quite a peacefull religion) has a sixth saying (call it zuil in holland, don't know how to say in english), which iscalled Jihad. But noone knows how it should be used. Defensive against outsiders, or offensive to get other ppl to believe in the islam. Christianity did bout the same thing in the last 4 or 5 centuries. With the colonization, the europeans kinda force-fed christianity to other cultures. Now tell me if I'm wrong, but it is nowhere stated in the bible that this was the will of God. Neither was the fact that the pope in the second world war did nothing, and in fact, mopre or less encouraged the germans to take care of the, in their eyes 'jewish problem'. Think that the Bible has something in it like all man are created equally. So what I mean is that perception of men from the messages in the bible is in a lot of cases bend to their own interests.
But in the long run, I think this is kinda a pointless discussion. Noone will ever find out, till they dead, and no way they gonna tell it to us. I respect the fact that people believe, and in no way do I want to convince people to stop believing, cause in some sort of way, I envy those people. I do think, that religion, for a lot of people, is just running from reality. For me, religion doesn't make any sense, but that's just me

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yeah God can change that kind of stuff...if he can create the universe im pretty sure hell be able to make a man be able to stand on water. I was saying physics doesnt get in the way of Christianity by a "How the universe was formed" sense. It actually helps. The big bang says that it was a swirling dot. Physics states that if an object is spinning then any piece from that object that comes off of it would spin in the same direction. We have moons in our solar system that spin backwards. How does that work.

all of the problems you are stating are from the corruption of the Catholic church. God gave men free will to do what they wish. If the pope did nothing that doesnt mean God wanted him to have the Jews slaughted. And Islam is NOT a peaceful religion. The whole thing says take revenge, kill in the name of your God et cetera. The Bible has some brutal stuff in the Old Testament but that is when God was trying to form the nations. Can you imagine what we would have to do to the arabs to make them believe in America? Yeesh wed probably end up killing them in the process.

And what I dont like about religious discussions is how angry people get. Today for instance after a class we sat around and it came up (in philosophy class what a shock) and 5 kids started arguing and yelling. So I said "HOLD IT" "guys, just talk in normal voices. Christians, you are trying to help the man dont yell at him, atheist, if there is no God why are you so passionate about it? They are trying to help you and you are trying to hurt them. Thats not fair. Now discuss it like civilized people or go outside, im trying to do homework" the conversation instantly got more deep and they let eachotehr talk and really tried to understand that point of view. People use science/atheism as a sword against Christianity. If you go to atheist websites its all about how christianity and the Bible are false. Nothing about other religions. People try to attack eachother too much. I talk to atheists all the time and never do they walk away angry. Most people actually are kind of interested in it but have been turned off by angry confrontations and misunderstading of the Bible. I say ask me a question. They say stuff like why does God let bad things happens. Then I explain why. Then they are like ohhhh that makes so much more sense than this guy who lets his people get destroyed. People want a happy happy solution where everything is groovy, but that aint the way things are. So when the Bible says you can do whatever you want, but you are probably going to regret it, they feel the same resentment that they do towards their parents. Then they go out and try heroin anyways and say "WHOA they were right! I did regret this" but people dont want to be held accountable for the bad thigns they do. They want to chalk it up to "its just my nature" or "this is the way I was raised" instead of just saying "I did something wrong"

first off:

I am glad that this came out to be such a constructive discussion.. it was a really interesting read for me to this point

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax The big bang says that it was a swirling dot. Physics states that if an object is spinning then any piece from that object that comes off of it would spin in the same direction. We have moons in our solar system that spin backwards. How does that work.

I am in no way a physics major, but if you are talking about momentum conservation, it only says that the total angular momentum is conserved. Therefore, it is possible that the piece coming off spins in an opposite direction


on the Pope/ Killing jews issue. I think that you can belive in God (even a Christian one) without being member of the church. I certainly do not think that the Pope is anyhting but another way for the catholic church to gain control over people. I strongly disagree with the view that he is the 'representative' of god..

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