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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Shit, you're right...
Gen 21: 1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac [a] to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.

My bad... I got it right in my earlier post though... must have been a brain fart.


its all good, I grew up in an envrioment that allowed me to read allot of the bible and all of its translations,,,,

Old Post Dec-12-2007 18:41  United States
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
This is a touchy subject and the source of much debate....blah blah blah some fairy tales

I wasn't referring to what is written in the Koran, but what Islamists say in their ideology (like Hamas etc)

You don't need to tell me there are contradictions between Judaism, Christianity and Islam! They contain enough contradictions in themselves!

Old Post Dec-12-2007 18:47  England
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Moral Hazard
Oppressing the 99%



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: with the 1%

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
I wasn't referring to what is written in the Koran, but what Islamists say in their ideology (like Hamas etc)

You don't need to tell me there are contradictions between Judaism, Christianity and Islam! They contain enough contradictions in themselves!


Just trying to provide some further context... maybe deepen your understanding of it a little; however, you're clearly not interested in hearing anything other then what you already believe to be true.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by RickyM
you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Old Post Dec-12-2007 18:49  Canada
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Haunted
one scary ass mothertruck



Registered: Oct 2001
Location:

don't blame all religion for the meanderings of fundamentalists who take books too literally. anyone with reason can deduce that the bible and all religious texts were written by men with divine influence but at the same time the 'mirror' of man was not cleanly polished so some dirt (ego) got reflected back.

i would be pretty wrong though to say something like 'all religions are factually wrong' this is just ignorant. what do you have to rely on then? science? according to materialist science you're a robot living in a random world. you might as well kill yourself buddy, what's the point?

look into eastern philosophy, taoism, mystical hinduism, pantheism. the west brought in this separation between man and god which is wrong and was only there to control the masses. look at what Jesus (and all of eastern philosophy) was trying to say, we are all children of god. but the thing is once you grow up and figure out who you truly are, you realize that you ARE god.

quote:
The game of god got embarrassing. The idea if God as the potter, as the architect of the universe, is good. It makes you feel that life is, after all, important. There is someone who cares. It has meaning, it has sense, and you are valuable in the eyes of the father. But after a while, it gets embarrassing, and you realize that everything you do is being watched by God. He knows your tiniest innermost feelings and thoughts, and you say after a while, 'Quit bugging me! I don't want you around.' So you become an athiest, just to get rid of him. Then you feel terrible after that, because you got rid of God, but that means you got rid of yourself. You're nothing but a machine. And your idea that you're a machine is just a machine, too. So if you're a smart kid, you commit suicide. Camus said there is only one serious philosophical question, which is whether or not to commit suicide.

But the people who coined the fully automatic theory of the
universe were playing a very funny game, for what they wanted to say
was this: all you people who believe in religion--old ladies and
wishful thinkers-- you've got a big daddy up there, and you want
comfort, but life is rough. Life is tough, as success goes to the most
hard- headed people. That was a very convenient theory when the
European and American worlds were colonizing the natives everywhere
else. They said 'We're the end product of evolution, and we're tough.
I'm a big strong guy because I face facts, and life is just a bunch of
junk, and I'm going to impose my will on it and turn it into something
else. I'm real hard.' That's a way of flattering yourself....But
however, you see, this whole idea that the universe is nothing at all
but unintelligent force playing around and not even enjoying it is a
putdown theory of the world. People who had an advantage to make, a
game to play by putting it down, and making out that because they put
the world down they were a superior kind of people. So that just won't
do. We've had it. Because if you seriously go along with this idea of
the world, you're what is technically called alienated. You feel
hostile to the world. You feel that the world is a trap. It is a
mechanism, it is electronic and neurological mechanisms into which you
somehow got caught. And you, poor thing, have to put up with being put
into a body that's falling apart, that gets cancer, that gets the
great Siberian itch, and is just terrible. And these
mechanics--doctors--are trying to help you out, but they really can't
succeed in the end, and you're just going to fall apart, and it's a
grim business, and it's just too bad. So if you think that's the way
things are, you might as well commit suicide right now... So you see,
all I'm trying to say is that the basic common sense about the nature
of the world that is influencing most people in the United States
today is simply a myth. If you want to say that the idea of God the
father with his white beard on the golden throne is a myth, in a bad
sense of the word 'myth,' so is this other one. It is just as phony
and has just as little to support it as being the true state of
affairs. Why? Let's get this clear. If there is any such thing at all
as intelligence and love and beauty, well you've found it in other
people. In other words, it exists in us as human beings. And as I
said, if it is there, in us, it is symptomatic of the scheme of
things. We are as symptomatic of the scheme of things as the apples
are symptomatic of the apple tree or the rose of the rose bush. The
Earth is not a big rock infested with living organisms any more than
your skeleton is bones infested with cells. The Earth is geological,
yes, but this geological entity grows people, and our existence on the
Earth is a symptom of this other system, and its balances, as much as
the solar system in turn is a symptom of our galaxy, and our galaxy in
its turn is a symptom of a whole company of other galaxies. Goodness
only knows what that's in.
But the problem is, you see, we haven't been taught to feel that way.
The myths underlying our culture and underlying our common sense have
not taught us to feel identical with the universe, but only parts of
it, only in it, only confronting it--aliens. And we are, I think,
quite urgently in need of coming to feel that we ARE the eternal
universe, each one of us. Otherwise we're going to go out of our
heads. We're going to commit suicide, collectively, courtesy of
H-bombs. And, all right, supposing we do, well that will be that, then
there will be life making experiments on other galaxies. Maybe they'll
find a better game.


Alan Watts from Nature of Consciousness
http://deoxy.org/w_nature.htm


___________________
this is it.

Old Post Dec-12-2007 19:15  Zimbabwe
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zoogla
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quote:
Originally posted by Haunted
but the thing is once you grow up and figure out who you truly are, you realize that you ARE god.

Old Post Dec-12-2007 20:27 
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Moral Hazard
Oppressing the 99%



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: with the 1%

quote:
Originally posted by Haunted
but the thing is once you grow up and figure out who you truly are, you realize that you ARE god.


The Gnostic Christians would agree with you on this... to an extent I do as well. It stands to reason; if there is a God that created everything when there was nothing then it must follow that God created everyting out of itself (as God was the only thing that existed). If this is true then everything that does exist is a part of God. My faith tells me that God is indivisible therefore everything that exists is God, you and I included.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by RickyM
you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Old Post Dec-12-2007 20:44  Canada
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zoogla
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I prefer my response.

Old Post Dec-12-2007 20:46 
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Haunted
one scary ass mothertruck



Registered: Oct 2001
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
The Gnostic Christians would agree with you on this... to an extent I do as well. It stands to reason; if there is a God that created everything when there was nothing then it must follow that God created everyting out of itself (as God was the only thing that existed). If this is true then everything that does exist is a part of God. My faith tells me that God is indivisible therefore everything that exists is God, you and I included.


indeed

there is a clear distinction between you and YOU. by YOU i don't mean your name, your body, your race, your likes or dislikes.. basically your ego.. by YOU i mean consciousness, the inner witness.

materialistic science completely ignores this consciousness and views it as completely arbitrary, which actually means you are arbitrary and are the sum of your parts. pretty lame explanation in my opinion. to completely ignore science is wrong, but so is to completely ignore spirituality.


___________________
this is it.

Old Post Dec-12-2007 22:43  Zimbabwe
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venomX
ISO salty whenches



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Sure it was written by humans, but for some reason, the bible has a strange cohesion for being written by over 40 authors, at different times spanning thousands of years, in different places, cultures, by average men, kings, and prophets, young and old, covering history, prophecy, and poetry. I simply can't just write off the bible as a simple self-help book. The bible is unique in its composition that despite the differences in the authors lives, still maintains a cohesion no other holy book can claim. I have not come across another holy book that wasn't written by little more than 1 author.

I think the councils did their job canonizing the different books floating around the ancient world for proof of divine inspiration, eye-witness account by the authors, and agreement with accepted canon texts. Their investigations ruled out the apocrapha's very well with questionable authorship, non-agreement with accepted canon, and the requirement for eye-witness account by every author. I can trust the gospels as truth because they written by eye-witnesses, who better to write about Jesus than the very people who lived with him 24/7??

We can certainly agree to disagree, especially with some of the atheists on this board, but as I said, I believe the bible to be divinely inspired revelation from a reality outside scientific inquiry.



You can fool yourself all you want man but the gospels were not written by people that lived with Jesus. The earliest of the gospels was written about 70 years after the death of Jesus. The other ones were written later. At first, all they were meant to be was a recollection of the oral traditions present in the early Christian community. The Bible as such did not became a holy object until the council of Nicea. And at that, the council selectively picked the gospels that served their purposes, nothing more nothing else. You're big on powerful people playing with the facts to spin it their way right? Well, just imagine that the Council of Nicea was the meeting at Jekyll Island for the powerful early Christians


___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean
quote:
Orbax
At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Old Post Dec-12-2007 23:03  Dominican Republic
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

I'm drunk, but in the interest of objectivity:

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
You can fool yourself all you want man but the gospels were not written by people that lived with Jesus.


True.

quote:
The earliest of the gospels was written about 70 years after the death of Jesus.


Modern biblical scholarship puts the death of Jesus at about 30 AD. There are conflicting nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke (Mark and John don't bother with Jesus' divine birth for some reason... ?) but circa 30 AD seems about right. The scholars put Markan priority at about 65-70 AD - 40 years after the death of Jesus. Find me the scholar who puts Mark (or the "earliest of the gospel" writers) in the 2nd century, and I'll find you a marginilised moron.

quote:
The other ones were written later.


They were all written after Mark, but all four were most likely written in the first century AD - i.e. within that 70 year span.

quote:
At first, all they were meant to be was a recollection of the oral traditions present in the early Christian community.


"Oral" tradition? The time-span is too short to allow that. "Literary" religions are quite seperate in composition from non-literarary ones, and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition can be more accurately traced back to a literary foundation than an oral one.

In Paul's letter to the Galatians (50 - 60 AD) he makes a fairly clear reference to the length of time that he has been a Chrisitan (Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1) which adds up to about 17 years. Maybe Paul is lying, maybe the Jesus scholars have it wrong, but most likely the Christian literary tradition began quite soon after the ministry of Jesus (which in itself says nothing about the veracity of the Gospel accounts of Jesus - these came later). This quite sudden literary tradititon likely discounts the possibility of extended oral transmission as the origin of the Christian religion.

quote:
The Bible as such did not became a holy object until the council of Nicea.


The corpus of the Bible was in place long before then. The gospels of Judas, Thomas and Mary were rejected as canonical by the majority of Christians long before the Nicean council, for instance. Nonetheless, this still serves as a pretty good example of how arbitrary the composition of the Bible must have been. If we can say that the canonical gospels were divinely inspired, then on what basis (excepting the Nicean Creed) can we say that the gospel according to Thomas (which doesn't claim a divine Jesus) wasn't?

quote:
And at that, the council selectively picked the gospels that served their purposes, nothing more nothing else.


The books of the New Testement weren't thrown together arbitrarily, they were picked on the basis of how widely they were - to excuse the pun - accepted as gospel. The modern NT corpus is basically no different from the corpus dictated by Irenaeus in 180 AD - about 150 years before the council of Nicea.

That doesn't change the fact the construction of the modern NT was largely arbitrary - and that people may not be worshiping Jesus of Nazerath today if it weren't for a few accidents of history - but if you're going to challenge the tennets of Christianity, you may as well get the facts straight.


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Last edited by Renegade on Dec-14-2007 at 18:15

Old Post Dec-14-2007 17:54  Australia
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venomX
ISO salty whenches



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
I'm drunk, but in the interest of objectivity:



True.



Modern biblical scholarship puts the death of Jesus at about 30 AD. There are conflicting nativity accounts in Matthew and Luke (Mark and John don't bother with Jesus' divine birth for some reason... ?) but circa 30 AD seems about right. The scholars put Markan priority at about 65-70 AD - 40 years after the death of Jesus. Find me the scholar who puts Mark (or the "earliest of the gospel" writers) in the 2nd century, and I'll find you a marginilised moron.



They were all written after Mark, but all four were most likely written in the first century AD - i.e. within that 70 year span.



"Oral" tradition? The time-span is too short to allow that. "Literary" religions are quite seperate in composition from non-literarary ones, and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition can be more accurately traced back to a literary foundation than an oral one.

In Paul's letter to the Galatians (50 - 60 AD) he makes a fairly clear reference to the length of time that he has been a Chrisitan (Gal 1:18, Gal 2:1) which adds up to about 17 years. Maybe Paul is lying, maybe the Jesus scholars have it wrong, but most likely the Christian literary tradition began quite soon after the ministry of Jesus (which in itself says nothing about the veracity of the Gospel accounts of Jesus - these came later). This quite sudden literary tradititon likely discounts the possibility of extended oral transmission as the origin of the Christian religion.



The corpus of the Bible was in place long before then. The gospels of Judas, Thomas and Mary were rejected as canonical by the majority of Christians long before the Nicean council, for instance. Nonetheless, this still serves as a pretty good example of how arbitrary the composition of the Bible must have been. If we can say that the canonical gospels were divinely inspired, then on what basis (excepting the Nicean Creed) can we say that the gospel according to Thomas (which doesn't claim a divine Jesus) wasn't?



The books of the New Testement weren't thrown together arbitrarily, they were picked on the basis of how widely they were - to excuse the pun - accepted as gospel. The modern NT corpus is basically no different from the corpus dictated by Irenaeus in 180 AD - about 150 years before the council of Nicea.

That doesn't change the fact the construction of the modern NT was largely arbitrary - and that people may not be worshiping Jesus of Nazerath today if it weren't for a few accidents of history - but if you're going to challenge the tennets of Christianity, you may as well get the facts straight.


Fair enough, I had merely duplicated the facts that one of my teachers in high school had taught us. After all he was supposed to hold a PhD in Theology, so I trusted the information was a bit accurate. That and considering he was a Jesuit priest. I stand corrected. Even in light of this new information however, my points are not greatly affected. That bible was written by man. The gospels were written decades after the death of Jesus. They were not written by people that actually co-habitated with Jesus. Even if it was a literary tradition that transmitted the origins and mandates of Christianity, there is still space for distortion, specially considering the lengths of time involved and that no one would check for validity in those days something that claimed to be the word of god.

Thanks for the clearing up though. I was going to research it to get it right but I'm a tad busy with finals, and I'm already procrastinating too much.


___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean
quote:
Orbax
At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Old Post Dec-14-2007 18:31  Dominican Republic
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