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Originally posted by Zild But you see the consequences of sex are possible pregnancy. And one of the possible consequences of that is having an abortion. Simple right?

The ultimate biological function of sex is procreation. The ultimate biological function of pregnancy is not abortion. I don't see how the two consequences are in any way equal.

I don't know. It happened to me. Can happen to anyone else. Sorry but I'm not bound to the remnants of a puritan morality like the rest of the US seems to be.

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I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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Originally posted by Zild I don't know. It happened to me. Can happen to anyone else. Sorry but I'm not bound to the remnants of a puritan morality like the rest of the US seems to be.

I'm not saying people need to think the way I do, or believe what I do. It would be a pretty boring place if everyone thought the same. I guess what I don't understand is how my belief is so "puritan" and even if so, why would that automatically make it wrong? I'm not brining any religious overtones into my logic when it comes to abortion (at least that I'm consciously aware of). Yes, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I haven't really been to church in about 2 years and I'd say that I have more Buddhist beliefs now a days than strictly Catholic.

...anyway, the only two points I try to bring into an abortion debate are 1) if the pregnancy is the result of a consensual act, the pregnancy (consequence of the action) is the responsibility of the parents, and 2) whether or not you consider the developing "thing" to be a person, it is genetically human, a living being, and killing it, along with any other living thing for no valid reason, is wrong.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono whether or not you consider the developing "thing" to be a person, it is genetically human, a living being, and killing it, along with any other living thing for no valid reason, is wrong.

I can't say that I necessarily disagree with your logic, as we are all just cell clusters standing upright, fueled by the need to consume far more than our premature inhabitants, under the illusion of some sort of self-possession or sentience... but if you draw the line at what is and what is not human, then where does that line stop?

Killing without valid reason is an eventual component of life. You cannot disagree with Nature, she does not care for what you think to be valid.

And why does being 'genetically human' qualify something as having a right to life? What of the mother's life that is being taken away or changed irreparably as the result of an act as base as taking a shit? There is no miracle in childbirth. No sanctity of replicating your gametes in order to form some little proselyte for the school system to raise to breed some more to fuel its hegemony. Are there other options out there besides abortion? You bet. But what the hell is so wrong with terminating something unwanted?

Do you reel in disgust at yourself when you disinfect your kitchen countertops? Or do you prefer to live in filth because fuck man, just because they're germs doesn't mean that cell clusters don't have a right to life!

If you ask me, we should lift all bans on abortion. Including those that restrict us from terminating people before they reach the age of 30. Could do without some people. FIRE UP THE GOVERNMENT DEPOPULATION PROGRAM.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Massive84 I guess it is hard to say if abortion is murder or not. Terminating a life form is murder. However we humans invented the term murder only for unnecessary termination. We have been terminating life forms from the beginning of time. Purpouses are, survival, consumption, religion and such. The question would be. Is abortion an unnecessary termination of life a form?

I agree with this hypothesis...

The argument that every conception should be brought to fruition, strikes me as more of an academic or collegiate moral debate, then it does as an argument rooted in a viable reality.

I think that ANY World Leader today recognizes, whether openly or not, that we/they can not afford to fill their country or the world, with new humans from all of the pregnancies that actually occur. When you're talking about a population growth on those levels, it would be too destabilizing to the planet to thrust these new people's needs suddenly upon us.

And for the most part, this is mostly a puritanical religious argument anyway (on the part of those who are against abortion), in this country at least. But like so many things when it comes to religion, what one says they believe and want, and what one actually ends up doing, are two different things. I'm sure that the majority of women have historically...once they are by themselves in that voting booth...more often than not, voted for the party that allows them to have abortions, religious affiliations aside. Are they going to admit it? I doubt it! But that's what makes voting such a powerful and wonderful thing.

I think abortion is here to stay. It's really one of those non-issue issues, one which we spend an inordinate amount of time on relative to some of our other, more pressing problems that need addressing. It always comes up at election time and it's a lame-duck distraction, IMHO.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

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Originally posted by NeoPhono The ultimate biological function of sex is procreation. The ultimate biological function of pregnancy is not abortion. I don't see how the two consequences are in any way equal.

You think abortion is wrong and universal healthcare is wrong. Boy sad reality that you became a doctor
Being that I was born in a Latin American nation most people here oppose abortion. I also oppose abortion but it isn't because the same reasons as you guys believe. I think it would be a great way to deal with population control for the lower class.

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Originally posted by guerra-monstru You think abortion is wrong and universal healthcare is wrong. Boy sad reality that you became a doctor Being that I was born in a Latin American nation most people here oppose abortion. I also oppose abortion but it isn't because the same reasons as you guys believe. I think it would be a great way to deal with population control for the lower class.

How could you possibly oppose abortion and at the same time believe it is a great method for population control? Those two points contradict each other. Sadly, the rest of our countrymen in many Latin American countries are blinded by the disproportionate influence the Catholic Church still has on these issues. And please, stop bashing NeoPhono, even though you don't agree with his points, I'm sure he is a good doctor. Remember, in argumentation the point is to address the arguments not the person.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX How could you possibly oppose abortion and at the same time believe it is a great method for population control? Those two points contradict each other. Sadly, the rest of our countrymen in many Latin American countries are blinded by the disproportionate influence the Catholic Church still has on these issues. And please, stop bashing NeoPhono, even though you don't agree with his points, I'm sure he is a good doctor. Remember, in argumentation the point is to address the arguments not the person.

Ok the point I was trying to make was that in normal cases I think abortion is wrong. If you don't use protection than you should not be having sex.
And then there are the people that cannot afford to have a baby. why should they have children for if they can't provide for the child? The best thing to do would be to force an abortion in that case rather then having a kid with no future.
I have my serious doubts that Neophono is a good doctor. Why because his beliefs are not any good for a doctor also what are his qualifications of being for being a doctor? His dad was one? his mother? Or was it that he just had a lot of money? I don't believe in the American education system for doctors plus you than have a serious flaw when many doctors from Latin America and Aisa go to the US. Are they as qualified as an American doctor and vice versa?

are doctor's not allowed to have their own opinions and belifs? I think you missed the point made my Venom-X


Lets look at this from a non ethical point of view, as ethics are inherantly personal boundries that are not universally defined.

The worlds population doubled between 1964 and 1999 (3 to 6 billion) it is expected to hit 7 billion by 2011. In every system there is a point of equillibrium, when will humanity reach its fulcrum point? How many billions of humans can the earth sustain? The population is growing exponentially and we can barely sustain the population we currently have (poverty and starvation through the majority of the 3rd world (i really hate the term "third world"))

I dont think it would be responsible to abbolish abortion based on a moral standpoint, or pinning responsability on the woman and man for improper use of birth control. Im not advocating abortion as a form of birthcontrol, but i think that in some cases, it may be a viable form of population control.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

The outpouring of love towards doctors continues.

My "job" is to save as well as maintain quality of life. Some physicians have no issues with abortion, I do as it seems to directly contradict my first statement. We can argue all day that a baby might make a woman's life miserable, less convenient, hectic or any other negative adjective but that is trumped by the idea of taking away another's life in order to ease that suffering (ala abortion) and that the choice to have sex, thus "make a baby" was a decision she knowingly made.

I'd also add that these straw man arguments somehow equating my disdain for abortion to the killing of bacteria, cancer, somatic cells, etc., is pretty silly (in my opinion).

So where do you draw the line between life and human life, then? If that is, indeed, your excuse.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono The outpouring of love towards doctors continues. My "job" is to save as well as maintain quality of life. Some physicians have no issues with abortion, I do as it seems to directly contradict my first statement. We can argue all day that a baby might make a woman's life miserable, less convenient, hectic or any other negative adjective but that is trumped by the idea of taking away another's life in order to ease that suffering (ala abortion) and that the choice to have sex, thus "make a baby" was a decision she knowingly made. I'd also add that these straw man arguments somehow equating my disdain for abortion to the killing of bacteria, cancer, somatic cells, etc., is pretty silly (in my opinion).

Neo it is nothing personal. I am sure you are a great person outside of the hospital and internet